Steve Lindsey Interview on
The TrevBeats Show 

[0:04] As far as AI today, I think about it in a much bigger picture. [0:11] I see it as something ultimately that's going to dumb down everybody. [0:20] And from people I talk to that are high up in positions, I mean, they're saying like two years from now, no more white collar jobs. [0:22] You probably shouldn't even go to college. [0:30] It's not going to make sense because kids are going $100,000, $150,000, maybe more. They go to Ivy League. [0:32] They're never getting that money back. [0:34] To me, it's like, oh, come to the playground. [0:41] Look how fun this is with the music and the art. Look at all the stuff you can make. Hey, you know what? Read the fine print on that stuff. They own your [expletive]. [0:51] So that's what I see it as when everybody's going, oh, it's got these all creative things. ****, learn to play your instrument. [0:52] Real quick. [0:57] If you're new here, welcome to the TrevBeats Show. Hit subscribe so we can keep building together. [1:01] And to my regulars who show up every time, I see you and your viewership means everything. [1:09] If you ever want to help fuel this channel so we can do even bigger things, you can grab some fresh gear from the merch store below or jump into the backstage membership next to the subscribe button. [1:27] No pressure, just love. Now back to the show. [1:35] TrevBeats Show. TrevBeats Show. Ladies and gentlemen, well, today we're actually sitting [1:42] With someone who has done all the different facets of the music business. Management, songwriting, production, publishing. [1:46] Very knowledgeable, been in a lot of rooms that a lot of people will never get to go in. [1:52] But we're going to have a conversation today on a subject that is super polarizing, and that's AI. [2:01] So I'm always interested, as you know, in getting everyone's opinion and getting people's feedback on how this is affecting them and how they think it's affecting the business. [2:12] So we're going to go to the source today, and I want to introduce everyone to my dear friend, Mr. Steve Lindsey. [2:21] Steve, what's up, man? Yo. What's happening, bro? Hey, Trev. How you doing? I love you, Trev. Good to see you, man. [2:27] Nice seeing you. So man, I appreciate you being here. We get right into it, bro. [2:31] First of all, I want everybody to understand who they're listening to. [2:41] So can you just give a brief synopsis on some of the things you've been a part of and what you've done on the different sides of the business? Okay. [2:43] I know it's a lot. [2:52] I started out as a studio musician, became an arranger and associate producer mainly with Richard [2:59] Perry and worked with everybody from Russ Teitelman to Giorgio Moroder. [3:05] I mean, I've played on records everywhere from [3:09] Devo to Joni Mitchell to Marvin Gaye, blah, blah, blah. [3:18] And then became a producer at A&M, sold about 30 million records, maybe more, worked [3:26] With everybody from Celine Dion to Alice Cooper to Aaron Neville, did a bunch of stuff [3:35] Over at Motown, then started my publishing company where I signed Mike Alessandro, Bridget Beninante, J [3:42] .R. Rotem, Bruno Mars, Brody Brown, spent years developing. [3:47] I know I'm leaving out someone, and it's probably someone great. [3:57] And then had success in that, then continued with the pub company. [4:06] And then about 10 years ago, I wanted to go back into TV and film, so became a partner at Remote Control with Tom Simmer. [4:13] We started two licensing labels that have now close to 200 albums in them. [4:23] But I'm working on, hey, here's my 10th draft. You know what I've been able to accomplish? [4:29] That nobody knows that I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm still working. [4:38] Well, I can say, man, just the people you just named, guys, do your [4:46] Homework, just in, of course, Bruno, who you know, and Brody Brown and Mike Alessandro. I mean, do your homework. [4:50] Obviously, Steve, you know what songs are about, and you know songs, and you know music. [4:58] If there's one thing you can pull from that So, you know, you also came up in a time that was, you know, you [5:01] Saw a lot of evolution happen on the technology side of music. [5:09] So, you know, we both kind of lived through, you know, the synth thing and drum machines and MIDI and then DAWs and plugins and samples. [5:15] And now here we are at the big elephant in the room, it seems, which is AI. [5:21] And, you know, you being on both sides of everything, like being on the publishing side and the writing side and producing side, I'm [5:27] Very interested in what you feel the impact is going to be and has been. [5:36] I mean, personally, I'm a massive advocate for integrating it into the creative workflow in a place if there's a place that it makes sense. [5:43] But, you know, you've been producing since the analog days, and you've adapted to the digital revolution. [5:50] But it's like when it comes to today, there's also the tech side of AI, but then there's this whole moral piece. [5:58] So I want you to give me, you know, just go through either how you use it or, you know, how you feel about it. [6:01] And, you know, we'll just elaborate from there, man. Okay. [6:08] You know, I thought about something this morning that I remembered. [6:12] And, you know, you and I are both from pretty solid musical backgrounds. [6:20] My father was a, you know, a great conductor and arranger, you know, Barbra Streisand and Judy Garland, etc. [6:31] And when I started becoming pretty successful, you know, finally, and it was generally during the, [6:38] I don't know, somewhere, I really started taking, you know, moving to the next step or mid 80s. [6:41] And I was sequencing a lot of stuff. [6:43] I was one of the first guys to get things. [6:47] I mean, in this town before that, I was one of the first guys to have MIDI stuff. [6:57] And I got to, you know, one of the first Lin 9000s and drum machines. And I always, and I loved sampling too. [7:01] My dad was very proud of me, wanted to come see one of my sessions. [7:07] And I was sitting there, you know, with either MPC 60 or Lin 9000. And I was time correcting stuff. [7:09] And really, you know, making, you know, it was the 80s. [7:17] It was like, you know, and my dad, after the session, after he saw [7:21] Me like time correcting everything and making it perfect. [7:24] He said, you know, he said he was proud of me. [7:32] But he said, I just want to tell you something. I said, what's that? He goes, people want to hear people. And I never forgot that. [7:41] And to this day, it's, you know, even though I, you know, sampling was always a big thing for me. [7:48] And the technology was always like, you know, the different sense and the different, Hey, the drum machines kind of put those, that was [7:54] Probably early kind of AI in a way, kind of put drummers out of work for a while, not forever. [8:03] But there was a period of time where it really affected the drummers. And so, but I always think about that. [8:14] So as far as AI today, I think about it in a much bigger picture than just, Hey, let's have fun with, you know, making music and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [8:19] You know, it's like, I see, and I'm could be 110% wrong. [8:29] I reserve the right to be, but I see it as something ultimately that's going to dumb down everybody. [8:39] And, you know, from people I talked to that are, that are high up in positions, I mean, they're saying like two years from now, no more white collar jobs. [8:41] Don't eat. You probably shouldn't even go to college. [8:49] It's not going to make, make sense because you know, kids are going to spend what, you know, a hundred thousand dollars, $150,000, maybe more to go to Ivy league. [8:52] They're never getting that money back. Right. [8:56] And, um, so it's like, to me, it's like, Oh, come to the playground. [9:03] Look how fun this is with the music and the art. Look at all this stuff you can make. Hey, you know what? Read the fine print on that stuff. [9:06] They own your, you know, every time you do that. [9:13] And, and, you know, and it's like, Oh, but in the meantime, it's just dumbing down everybody. [9:23] Uh, you know, what's next is the AI police force of robots when there's anarchy and there's no economy. [9:32] And, uh, you know, we go and, you know, probably end up like China and we'll have like a, um, universal, you know, income. Wow. [9:42] So, so that's, that's what I see it as like when everybody's going, Oh, it's got these old creative things like, you know, learn to play your instrument. [9:43] Right. [9:51] And, and on top of it, you know, it, I don't think that I'll write a song that is going to make me cry. [9:56] And then, you know, what are the artists that come out of it? [10:01] I mean, it's like, you're not going to be able to tour with that. Sure. You know? [10:09] So it's like in our business, Trev, you know, the ultimate thing is always been the [10:18] Big money or the ultimate goal is to go out like Bruno or like Madonna, or you name it, or the stones and [10:25] Go out and play these huge concerts in front of millions of people. That's the goal. [10:27] I mean, it's always been that way. [10:37] Even before, you know, before recorded music, um, you know, or right at the beginning, it's like, let's say take Billie holiday, for instance, [10:45] She's playing a club for, you know, before she had a record deal and, you know, for a little bit of money or some dope. [10:48] And, you know, nobody knows who she is. She gets a record deal. [10:54] And now through Columbia and John Hammond, they promote her. Right. [10:59] And, and then the next thing you know, she's playing Carnegie hall. [11:05] So she's gone from making no money to, you know, playing Carnegie hall and making [11:12] A real livid and becomes an icon based on these records. Okay. [11:21] And essentially it's, you know, like, look at the stones for instance. Okay. They're still out there in their eighties. [11:27] I mean, it's all about the songwriting and it's all about the performance. [11:37] And that's where the, so if you, if you write those 20 songs, you can live off those the rest of your life as a performer, they're just going out and play. [11:38] That's what people want to hear. [11:42] They want to hear those hit songs and buy that same t-shirt with the tongue on it. Okay. [11:47] And it's but that is the business of music. Yeah. [11:54] You know, the rest of the business of, you know, the songs are a vehicle to get you to the, to get, and if [11:59] You're a great performer, the songs are the vehicle to get you there. Yeah. And that's really the business. [12:08] So when it's like, oh, we're just going to, you know, make a million AI songs, you know, Hey, listen, some of those AI songs are better than the songs that people are writing. [12:13] I think maybe because most people don't know how to write songs anymore. [12:20] You know, everybody would track top liner that art died in the eighties. Right. You know, or, you know, slowly did. [12:28] I mean, there's, there's been great songs along the way, but, you know, the craft of it kept on diminishing and we [12:35] Were kind of basically the bars been lowered so much that when you look at sometimes the global top 50, I know, I know [12:44] Everyone's going to hate me over this, but I'm saying anyway, but when you look at that, it's like, it's all disposable music. It's just like, it all sounds the same. [12:45] It's all going in the same pile. [12:54] You know, maybe one or two things will creep through, but it's not like the era that, you know, your father and I came up in, you know, listening to the great [13:05] Motown songs or the Beatles or, you know, uh, the stones or Burt Bacharach and, you know, Carole King and Jeff Barry, those people who really knew the craft. [13:14] So it's like, now it's just, you know, yeah. How much stuff you can put out. So, yeah, that's, that's been happening. Yeah. Yeah. [13:22] So, so it's like, for me, it's, you know, when you bring up the AI thing, like in our studio, we don't use [13:28] ChatGPT or anything because I want to be on the right side of history on this thing. [13:35] I probably, you know, it'll be a tsunami of [expletive] happening, but at least I know that I stayed on the right side [13:42] Of the thing and look at, I have a 12 year old daughter, right? You got kids, right? Yeah. Okay. [13:47] So I made an emoji on the iPhone. [13:56] I sent someone like a little, I created this, I think for Wattie Wachtell, I made like a little dog playing guitar with a happy birthday thing on it. [13:57] You know, my daughter saw it. [14:05] She goes like, dad, take that off your phone. I go, what? I made Wattie a birthday card. She goes, no, that's AI. I go, really? [14:07] And she goes, yeah, that's destroying the planet. [14:11] Now that's a 12 year old because they know that. [14:20] And my friend who's really up there, one of the top guys at Spotify, he said that they did, there's a survey or basically [14:29] Like guys in my age group, you know, just people, not music people, just people, you know, 55 plus, we're not, we don't care about AI. [14:36] You know, we've, we've got, you know, we've got less days in front of you in front of us than we have behind us, you know? [14:40] So it's like, our life is not going to be consumed with like worrying about AI or anything like that. [14:49] You know, we've already done what, you know, we're in our thing, you know, that we're used to. [14:59] And then, you know, the guys that are 40 that have already made their money and they're a smart, they're going like, oh yeah, this, this happened. [14:59] This is the future. [15:08] But it's these other kids that are like 12 to 20 that are going because we [15:12] See that this is going to destroy the planet. We see that it's going to destroy jobs. [15:17] It's going to annihilate so much stuff that they're not buying it. [15:26] So I think, you know, who knows, who knows what's going to happen, but, you know, if it goes away, you know, everybody at [15:34] The top wants it to go, there are going to be 12 people who are running the whole planet with all the money and everybody else will be on this universal income. [15:40] And it won't matter if you write a bunch of songs, cause nobody's going to have the money to pay for tickets anyway. Right. [15:44] Life is going to be a, uh, one gigantic subscription. [15:46] Um, well you said a lot of stuff there. [15:50] So let's, I want to unpack a few things. So, yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, no. [15:58] So, you know, after the initial kind of shock of AI happened, um, I want to say, you know, I mean, it's been moving [16:07] Around in music, you know, for the last almost three years, you know, like really publicly and like audio and those things coming online has been in the last three years. [16:12] So after that initial shock, you started hearing this term called ethical AI. [16:17] Do you remember that little period that we had and people's like, Oh, this is sourced by ethical AI. It's ethical AI. [16:25] It's basically trying to say that this was not trained off of all of our old music and the old music before us. And it was trained. [16:29] These models were trained on the purpose of doing what they did. [16:33] Like give, you know, people were giving it stuff for the purpose of that. [16:38] They weren't scraping old, you know, records and old copyrights. I find that hard to believe. [16:42] I, you know, listen, it sounded because you don't even hear that term. Yeah. You don't even hear that term anymore. [16:50] I mean, it sounded great for a minute, but I could give you the argument on the other side of it for learning. Okay. [16:58] And I think you, and like, um, Hey, look, I'm in my late sixties. [17:00] I'm still working every day. [17:07] I'm working with younger artists and I'm doing a lot of film stuff and I still work every day. [17:15] Now there's a reason because, and people will ask me, well, what do you, what did you do to get to this point? [17:18] And to me, it's always about learning. Okay. [17:23] So I have an organic AI version of that, and here's what I do. [17:26] And I've been doing this since I was probably 15 years old. [17:32] And you know that, I mean, you know, you've worked with, with everybody pretty much that I've worked with. [17:39] And this is what I always subscribe to and, uh, recommend is that [17:47] You learn two songs a day and don't, and not learn them in a way you're going to interpret, learn them exactly the [17:57] Way they were written down to every nuance, you know, go through the Motown catalog, go through the great writers. [17:59] And, um, and I do that every day. [18:01] I've been doing that since I was 15 years old. [18:09] And it basically, it goes in my head, these, these, you know, these structures, the [18:17] Math on building a bridge, the, um, the melody constructions, this goes into my head and it comes out in different ways. [18:27] So a lot of times, like, you know, I'll go into a writing session and it'll be, it'll, sometimes it'll, they'll be confused on how to write a bridge. [18:36] I know exactly how to, I have so many references on bridge writing that I know the math on it to go like, okay, here's where we can go here. [18:39] Oh, here's what, and that all came from me learning other people's stuff. [18:46] And I've told people, you know, I probably have never had an original thought in my life, but I know everybody else's thoughts. [18:49] So, so that's an organic way of AI. [18:54] That's basically what it's doing, except I put in the time and effort to do it. [18:58] I recently had a friend who was, I forgot the name. [19:03] He said, there was this major AI company, they're getting into production. [19:06] And he said, oh, they're going to have this contest. [19:11] And basically you make a sizzle reel and whoever wins, they're going to make the TV show. Right. [19:21] I'm thinking like, no, I think they're just going to learn a bunch of stuff from all you idiots that are doing the same, but I don't say that to him, but that's what I was thinking. [19:23] And he said, oh, can you compose the music for me? [19:29] And I said, like, no, I'm not going to do that because it's going to be an AI company. They're just going to use AI music. Right. [19:31] And he goes, yeah, but you know, you're an expert, blah, blah, blah. [19:34] I said, well, first of all, I'm not doing stuff for free. [19:38] And second of all, there's no, there's no upside for me in the end. Right. [19:41] So, so he's like, oh, but I'm really stuck. [19:45] I said, hey, listen, man, it's an AI company, just go on Suno and do it there, you know? Right. [19:54] And so he goes, he gets, he goes on ChatGPT, reads a whole thing about how to compose for film. [19:54] Right. [20:03] Then he goes on to Suno and then he calls me and he's so excited. Oh, I didn't know. Like you guys know a lot of stuff. And he goes through all these terms. Right. [20:05] And how he constructed this thing. [20:14] And I just said, hey, dude, you, because it's like, I spent, you know, basically 55 years of my life learning how to do this. [20:22] As you think you're a composer in an afternoon, but people think that I'm a composer now. Right. Yeah. [20:23] It's interesting. Yeah. [20:31] I mean, listen, man, it's, yeah, it's such a, there's just so many ways it can go right. But so many ways it could go wrong. [20:43] And it's like, I, you know, I'm thinking of scenarios and I've recently heard of a scenario where, you know, the suits in an advertising company, you know, put out one of their directives for a campaign. [20:45] And then the campaign ended up going to one of the suits. [20:54] Cause they just, they just did a version of what they were asking for with AI and didn't need the outside writers, you know? And I'm sure that's how they don't know. Yeah. More than the advertising. [20:54] Yeah. [21:03] Advertising and light libraries, a lot of libraries, you know, um, where I see that kind of area being dominated by it. [21:10] Um, the one thing I got to go back to what you said about the whole flow and the funnel of what music is about. [21:18] And I think that's the important thing to remember here, because on a show a while back, I did some research and they've been trying to do, they've been doing these, [21:24] You know, holographic AI concerts all around China and filling up arenas and all that kind of stuff. [21:27] But I think that's people being enamored with the fact that it can happen. [21:29] I don't think it's because it's great right now. [21:35] We saw the influx of K-pop coming to the United States and dominating, you know, the last five, seven years. [21:39] And we know that they use a lot of AI with, with a lot of stuff. [21:47] And our dear friend who's been on the show, Mark Batson worked with the first deaf K-pop group, and that can only been possible through AI. [21:49] But I feel like generally you're right. [21:54] No one wants to go see an AI, you know, what's the artist. [22:02] So for me, the way I'm really talking about it with you, what I'm interested in is more on the songwriting side. [22:04] And does it help or not? [22:12] I mean, because you just said something that's a very important word, which is you have taken all that information in and you know the math on it. So it's not by accident. [22:22] It's not by, you know, you have formulas that you're using to get to these places and to know how to take a song and bring a song home and bring out certain emotion. [22:30] So if it's you, Steve Lindsey, the same Steve Lindsey that knows all this stuff and you're putting your information, be it, you know, [22:38] Structurally, chord wise, humming a melody into AI, and it's taking what you, the sum of what you know and adding to it. [22:44] Is that something that is potentially something that can help the situation be better? [22:47] Or, you know, how do you, what do you think about that? [22:56] Because you do know what it is and you do know how to do it just like I do, but is there a place for it to be a companion in the writing process? [23:03] Uh, you know, not for me because the thing I'm always looking for is the wrong chord at the right time. [23:08] And I'm, and I'm looking for the rub in the melody. It, it will not do that. [23:15] You know, um, it knows, it knows everything up until this point. It does. [23:20] And I guess it, but it can't really be, it can't be innovative into the future. [23:28] Maybe they say it can, but it can't think on its own until maybe it does. And then we're all really fucked, but right. [23:30] It can't be in the morning is what you're saying. [23:34] It has to be, it just knows everything from here all the way back. [23:43] When I'm always looking for it is like, you know, my business sense was always every, everybody goes right. [23:45] I go left. Right. Right. [23:50] So if you look at, you know, even when Bruno came, you know, Bruno did the same thing, man. [23:59] It's like when we were doing that stuff at, you know, in Beverly Hills and all around and, um, at the studios, you know, he went in a retro world that no [24:06] Like everybody was telling me that was never going to work because nobody was doing that. [24:10] Everybody was, it was all about like, you know, Neo and those kinds of records at that point. [24:13] And he took a big gamble, but he was smart. Yeah. [24:21] He was the only guy doing, and then, you know, so if you're the only person doing, so I'm always looking at like, for [24:29] Instance, I, one of the secrets, I'm not a secret, but one of the things, and [24:36] It's not, I'm not insulting anybody, but I don't listen to 35 year old A&R people. I don't. I hear that. [24:45] I wasn't, I listened to 14 year old kids because, because, you know, I think it was Dre said, or Mike Lynn said, you [24:51] Know, when the kids are 14 or 15, they pick their music and their sneaker brand. [24:58] So it's like, so it's like, you know, my son who's 14 and he's a rock [25:02] Guitar player and practices like six hours a day. [25:08] He came up to me at one point and he said, you know, dad, I go out and he's just like, we don't like Bruno. [25:14] I go, well, and I said, well, it's not going to hurt my feelings or anything. [25:20] I said, you shouldn't because that's your parents' music. Right. Right. [25:26] You know, and, you know, when he came out, he was fresh and everything. [25:33] Hey, look, if music didn't change and artists didn't change, we'd still be listening to Louis Armstrong, which wouldn't be such a bad idea. [25:40] But that's the, that's the fact everybody there's always new artists that speak to an [25:43] Audience in the right time, in the right place. [25:48] Like, you know, like Billie Eilish, for instance, she came out of nowhere, not been sounded like that. [25:52] When I first heard that record, I wasn't like, this is like unbelievably great. [26:02] And nothing sounded like it, but she was also speaking to these, this, this group of girls that were never like put on a pedestal. [26:06] They were never like understood. She understood that she was one of them. [26:12] And you know, if you ever go to see one of her concerts, man, she is adored by this girls everywhere. [26:19] But she also, you know, she really supported the girls that were a little bit outside [26:27] Of, you know, the, you know, the street where independent girl that was not like the most popular girl at school. She knew how to speak to them. [26:32] She knew what they were going through. I don't think I can do that. You know what, Steve? [26:39] I think that right there is a great example, because sometimes we talk about this too, which is, it is like you said earlier, [26:42] It can only exist off something that's already happened. [26:49] It can't pivot in the moment and feel the room and feel the energy. And then something else happened. It doesn't have the ability to do that. Right. [26:56] So I think that's the place where it's good for everybody that is a specialist like you and myself. [27:01] And a lot of people, we know that does know how to do this because that's where the divide happens. [27:12] I mean, you never know what's going to happen in the future, of course, but right now, to me, I see the divide being, you know, it can't walk into a room and feel the energy in the room. [27:21] And that caused you to write a song. That's what happens all the time. I mean, that's part of the inspiration. The happy accidents. Yeah. The happy accident, man. [27:23] So, you know, yeah. [27:35] Before I forget, because my ram has filled in my brain, but I was invited with, uh, Laurence Dobson over to in Venice and they gave us this little preview thing. [27:40] And, and, um, I went there out of curiosity and, you know, and they were very nice. [27:47] And, um, and I said, well, you know, it's not my thing to have something right songs, but they said, well, how can it help you? [27:51] And I said, and we were talking and I was working on a movie project at the time. [28:00] And I had a Diane Warren, um, song that I had to recut the director wanted a whole different approach. [28:08] He said, put the song in and then prompt the approach you want. So I did that. Now here was, here's what was interesting. [28:16] Yes. It saved me a load of time and effort. Okay. [28:21] It was pretty light. Um, but here's what happened in Diane's writing. [28:27] She did something I have never come across before in song structure. [28:36] And, and what it was is, um, in the second verse, she modulated the second verse, [28:40] I think down or something or up or she modulated it up. [28:45] Now I've never had, in all my years, I don't think I've really come across that. [28:50] Maybe I have, but I don't remember, but it was, it was an odd ball move on it. That's what makes Diane great. [28:55] She knows how to throw those, you know, those, those left curves into things. [29:03] And, um, so when the, when the, when the AI learned it didn't do that. [29:09] It didn't know to do that because it didn't exist before. [29:17] So it can't write the wrong chord at the wrong, the wrong chord at the right time. Right. Right. It's always, it didn't know that. [29:19] And then, and then, you know, I told Diane about it. [29:26] She goes like, Hey, you know what, that's cool and everything, but don't do that because it's learning my stuff. True. [29:30] She goes, I don't want you putting any more songs into AI. And I said, agreed. [29:38] That's the part we don't think about too, because yeah, as soon as you do that, it's in there like Prego, you know, and, [29:46] Um, you know, it sucks because anybody that's even messed around and try whatever, I mean, listen, who knows, you know, what's getting given [29:53] To other people when they render something, it could be something exactly that you put in there and somebody else is getting it. Now we'll never know. You know what I'm saying? [29:55] Well, and you know, what else? [30:02] Um, now I don't know if this is true or not, but, uh, my assistant read, started reading the fine print on stuff. [30:10] There was a, a thing that one of these programs that makes the stems for you, right? Yeah. You can do that on Suno. You can do that on Suno too. [30:11] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [30:13] But she read the fine print and guess what? [30:20] They own your [expletive] when you do that and they can learn from it and it becomes their property. Right. So there was a, there was a thing. [30:25] Um, I forgot one of the new pro tools things or something. [30:33] I was doing a film about a month and a half ago, we were over at evergreen and the engineer said, Hey, um, we want to use this other program that just [30:38] Came out in, um, pro tools that makes it so much easier to do blah, blah, blah. [30:47] And then, um, my assistant looked it up and said like, Hey, if they do that, if they use that, the pro tools are [30:51] Sooner who someone has rights to all the stuff you're doing. [30:53] And I called up the studio at, at evergreen. [31:00] I said, do not use that on our stuff. Yeah. I know logic has it built into. Yeah. Yeah. [31:06] And then, um, uh, you know, uh, I have a really good friend. [31:14] I'm not going to mention names, but a top level composer and he was working with a top level producer who you [31:21] Probably know, who I know, you know, and, um, and he, the, uh, the composer, uh, [31:28] Was working with him on, uh, on the film or, and, or the producer and the artist, they submitted a song for M [31:37] Title that they did on Suno and the motion picture company found out and made [31:41] Them get rid of the song and do it all over again by hand. [31:49] Because I think what's happening, like we've been put on notice, you know, on a lot of stuff that we cannot use AI on film and TV. [31:57] And I'll tell you why I think that is that, you know, the legality of the whole thing has not been worked out. [32:04] So like, for instance, if you're on Suno and you work, play with it for free, right. That's cool. You know, it's a toy, right. [32:12] But you can pay a monthly thing and then you can use this stuff, except if you're really read it, you can use it, but you're liable. They aren't right. [32:20] So if, so if it boils down, like, let's say you have a film company, like whatever Sony, or they're doing a bunch of [32:23] Films and you're putting a bunch of AI music into it. Right. [32:32] And let's say that the legality doesn't work out for AI later on, or the publishers are going like, well, you know, we gotcha [32:40] Every one of those films and all that music. That's going to be a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. So people don't think so. [32:43] They're saying like, we've been told not to use it. [32:49] We were told about three years ago, not to use splice. Yeah. [32:52] Like, because people are putting up shit that they don't own. [32:56] I saw recently a story about that with a producer named hit boy. [33:08] And I just saw online and he said, yeah, you know, I did this record and I guess there was a portion of it where, you know, it showed up on like alter, right. [33:13] There's like some portion of it, like a split second or whatever, had it just as it was. [33:16] And the rules say you have to put something with it. [33:24] So when that section didn't happen, the person who actually did the thing for splice came after him and they had to settle it. You know what I'm saying? [33:31] So that brings me to what I, another thing I was talking about, which is splice and which is some of these other type [33:36] Of plugins and drag and drop things that have existed before AI. [33:38] There are also issues with some of that stuff. Right. [33:43] So I feel like I think what splice, I think arcade is okay. [33:46] If you, if you don't like take their songs, right. [33:53] You know, I mean, that was always the question with arcade with me, cause they have a lot of vocal samples, right. That are really good. Oh yeah. [33:56] And you could actually build a song off of that stuff. [34:03] So let's say I build a song off their vocal sound samples and I register it. I'm the first guy to do it. [34:09] Now let's say you take the same thing and you register it. Can I sue you? No, probably. [34:16] I don't think it would be, I don't think it would be, I don't know. It's a funny gray area on that. Yeah, that's true. [34:20] I mean, it's like, and you know, I think they wipe their hands on it too. [34:29] Now the musical stuff, like I thought, I thought arcade would have been the company that could have taken the AI thing over to the next level. [34:37] I think they tried it, but I don't think they could beat Suno because I mean, their stuff is like, I've told you until [34:43] You pass, you know, I'll be working on a film or, uh, and down at the, you know, the final mix and stuff like that. [34:50] And the triggers I would say like, Oh man, I forgot to do, I forgot to tell you to do this in this scene. [34:56] And I'll have my, I always have my laptop and a keyboard at them at the mix in case of emergencies. [35:03] And I can build stuff immediately, at least drum wise off of, off of, uh, arcade and then, you know, I've got all my [35:07] Stuff in there and, but they have great starting points on that stuff. [35:14] I mean, I actually know, I know how to use arcade and around and, but [35:19] You know, Trevor, like my thing has always been since sampling started. [35:25] Cause I got, you know, I had an emulator one, I had a fair light. I mean, I was in this thing. [35:32] I was staying up all night making samples of my own. I still do that. I make my own stuff. [35:40] I, you know, I have, I have ways that I do it that I don't tell everybody because I don't want anybody copying me, [35:42] But, you know, there's, there's a lot of stuff. [35:45] Hey, look at, you know, it's like, it's like the guitar center thing. [35:51] You go into the guitar center and you see all these keyboards that already have the reverbs and all this, it sounded, those Moog ones. [35:59] And as soon as you hit it and said, you know, you don't have to work for anything. I don't like that stuff. Right. I just don't, it's not for me. [36:03] I like to work at stuff and have things that don't sound like anybody else's things. [36:13] So like in sampling, I, you know, I've always had my own methods about doing that, but I can tell you what's really crazy is that I've been in sampling so long [36:22] That there are records from my past that are on major labels with major artists that sampling was so new. [36:34] Nobody knew to even like address like, I literally, there is a way with murder. [36:43] I mean, we didn't know there was this one song and it was in a major motion picture and I, and I'm not going [36:48] To tell you what it is, but there was, but no, it's not my fault. [36:51] Now it's way past the point of doing it. [36:58] But I had a sample of, um, Marlon Brando from a street [37:06] Card client, uh, named Desire saying, yeah, say, Hey, that's appears like four times in the song. [37:07] And we didn't know how to license it. [37:13] I mean, it's like, Hey, it's just a sample. I was like sampling. I used to sit up all night. [37:18] I mean, cause when the emulator two came out, there was only 12 discs they gave you. Right. [37:21] And, um, and I used to sit there all night. [37:26] I had a, I had a, like a TV set on top of a videotape recorder. [37:31] And I would just randomly change the channels and video, you know, and record the audio onto video. [37:40] And then take that video, the audio out from my, from my, um, videotape into the, into the emulator. [37:43] And I would just capture like, like little pieces of weird music. [37:50] And then I would chop them up and key, you know, yeah. And nobody had that stuff. Right. [37:55] I was always making my own samples and, you know, and I would manipulate it. So it wouldn't sound like a score. [38:02] It would just be like certain, you know, orchestral hits or, or, or weird little passages that I could use. [38:09] But Steve, I think you're, you're, you're, you're bringing another concept to the table here, which I think is much bigger than AI and [38:17] Everything, which is the mindset that has over the years completely changed from everybody striving to [38:21] Be original to everybody striving to sound the same. [38:27] And I think this was perpetuated a lot by labels, you know, doing cloning and saying, Oh, one label, get this. [38:30] And everybody got to sign something exactly like that. [38:37] And now we're to the point where what you're talking about, that concept, people are not doing, most people are not doing that. [38:42] Now, most people are saying, yo, what's the most popular sound of week? Okay. Let me make 20 things with that. [38:51] No one is trying to, I mean, not knowing, but the overwhelming prevailing consciousness now that I'm seeing is people not trying to go [38:55] Against the grain and be original, but trying to be homogenized. [39:01] And this is on the plane side on, on picking instrument on any instrument on the production side. [39:08] And I think what you're saying right now speaks to a much, it's a correlation between what you're saying and not using AI. [39:15] And I also see a correlation between people trying to sound the same for people that use AI, because it makes you just say, Oh, what's the hottest thing. [39:17] Let me put it in here and spit something out. [39:20] It must be, they're most going to like this because they like the other thing. [39:22] So I think that, you know what I mean? [39:26] We got, we have a lot more and you and I are two guys that have mastered an instrument. [39:35] So we come from an automatic, different frame of mind from that time you put in, but that's a bigger problem almost to me than AI itself, because. [39:40] Well, yeah, I agree with you on that, but I can tell you something else. [39:49] The, the data that I'm getting from, you know, um, Hey, I'm sitting here and, you know, at remote control, you know, and the [39:57] Data I'm getting is that, um, they want weird [expletive]. Everybody wants weird [expletive]. [40:00] Everybody's going like, don't do the normal thing anymore. Go completely. [40:04] I don't, you know, I mean, I can't pronounce names, man. [40:07] It's like, I think it's a lost Stumpinunkus or something like that. [40:17] They were the number one, um, album on Pitchfork just recently, you know, six months ago or something. And I was curious about it. [40:20] And, and then I went on Spotify and Apple, they weren't there. [40:27] And I was like, where do you get this? So it was only on Bandcamp. I had to buy a CD. They had to send it to me. [40:34] And it is so out there, but I love it. And it's just like, there's no fault. I mean, it's just these two ingenious people. [40:45] And it's just like, it's, it's, it's, it's like this synth trance-y stuff that I can't even explain what it is, but it's so good. [40:50] And, um, you know, I'm going to go see them at the El Rey. I bought my tickets already. [40:57] And, um, but that's what kids like, like, you know, my son, he's like, you know, he likes all the classic rock stuff because [41:06] He's a rocker, but, you know, we went and saw Sleep Token and that was mind -boggling. That stuff, you cannot AI, I am sorry. [41:09] I mean, that band was unbelievable. [41:18] I was like, you know, there's a plenty of times in my youth that, you know, like when, when Emerson Lake and Palmer and, [41:27] And King Crimson and, uh, Zappa and Steely Dan on all different levels, as they were [41:34] Coming, these things were coming out every time I was feeling like, oh, I better up my game. I got to learn more stuff. These are better. These are better people. [41:42] When I saw that Sleep Token stuff, I went like, oh, yeah, I'm nowhere near that good, you know? [41:51] And, and also, you know, I've been working with Sia Gray and it's like, I'm baffled on how good she is and her brother. [41:56] I'm not like, I'm going like, I hope these people don't find out that I don't know what I'm doing. [41:59] I'm, I'm enjoying, I'm learning more from her than she's learning from me. [42:08] I mean, I'm like, you know, but there are people out there that are really good that have command over their instruments and [42:12] Everybody, the real good artists are going against the grain right now. [42:16] You know, I think we're at a point where it's the homogenization. [42:24] It's so much of it that nobody cares anymore. And that happens in music, man. [42:26] I, hey, I'm older than you, man. [42:30] I watched, I was in my early twenties. [42:41] I was for, I was just coming on as a, you know, LA guy thing at 1979, just coming into it and disco was officially over. [42:48] Oh, but guess who didn't know that the record companies, because they kept making the [expletive] [42:56] Like, no, no, no, it's not only we paid so much money, we got to keep, but it was over. Right. And, and what happened? [43:00] And I'm not saying anything bad against this disco, man. There was some great songwriting. [43:06] It was great record making, but there was just too much of it and cultures change. [43:19] And then all of a sudden the anti thing comes in the punk bands and then, you know, turning into new wave where you added songwriting to that whole culture. [43:22] Yeah. And disco was dead. [43:30] And I think you're going to see this kind of like four chord track, top liner songwriting. [43:39] It's we've had a lot, there's some good stuff, some good stuff, but I just like, Hey, look at, like I said, I don't listen to 35 year old guys. [43:40] Right. [43:49] You know, they could still give me a job if they'd like, but I listen to my son and his friends and his, [43:56] My son is a real rocker, but, and his friends, they're not musicians on all of them, but man, I'm watching what they're into. [44:00] They are into heavy duty rock. [44:08] They're into like, I've had to go to punk shows with my son, you know, where the main band comes on at one in the morning. [44:15] Sure. You know, it's like, yeah, there, there, I think we're in a way at the end [44:22] Of disco and going into this like, from the kids. I think you're right. [44:26] And my daughter is the same way with her friend group, man. They, they hit these concerts, bro. [44:32] And it's like some of the people, it's like all of a sudden, and their whole thing is their early adopters. Right. [44:41] So, you know, what's the cat from, uh, from Canada, um, uh, Mac DeMarco, she was on him years before, you know, he kind of broke out and we took him to [44:42] Go, took them to go see him at the Greek. [44:48] And it was like, you know, now they know the songs they're going to play, you know, on the set list from other concerts they did. [44:52] And there's some Japanese band that she loved this Japanese, like rock band. [44:56] And they're, you know, selling out all these places and we'll never really hear about them like that. [45:02] But this generation is going against the grain in that regard. And I'll say this too. [45:10] I see a correlation of the independent people that are going against the grain versus the labels that are still doing the sign. Everybody sounds the same. [45:19] I think we're starting to see a little bit more of a culture of individuality, but it's mostly from the independent people that don't have the chains on them. [45:19] Right. [45:25] So I think, you know, I mean, bro, everything you're saying, Steve, it really makes sense. [45:32] But, but again, you're also coming from the real side of music when you had to really know what you were doing to be in the room. [45:35] And if you didn't, so you're going to get replaced immediately. [45:44] And just going back to our friends at Output, I'm, you know, I'm very tied in with them. They, you know, I did a whole thing. They filmed me for Arcade. So I love Arcade. I love Arcade too. [45:44] Yeah, it's amazing. [45:49] And I think, you know, you can definitely manipulate it and use it in a way and it's hip. [45:54] I love, I love how they put that out there. Cause I guess it came from a composer. Yeah. [45:56] So, you know, that stuff is awesome, man. [45:59] But Steve, you know, we could talk forever, bro. [46:08] I, you know, I wanted to get your, your take on it because, you know, listen, man, not in a negative way, but honestly, I'm glad you came because it's like you, [46:12] You know, if there was a definition, I mean, you can really be considered what's called a gatekeeper. [46:15] I mean, it's, it's usually gets a nefarious thing, but it doesn't mean that. [46:23] It's someone that has been around, that has a lot of relationships that has the ability to influence decisions that may affect a lot of people. And you're definitely in that position. [46:31] So your authority on this is very, you know, um, credible and I'm very happy that you came to speak with us, man, [46:33] Because I'm trying to hit this thing on all sides. [46:35] You know, I talked to the players about it. [46:38] I talked to, you know, engineers like Manny about it. [46:41] I've talked to songwriters like Brian, Michael Cox and others about it. [46:49] And, you know, you, who does all of it, but then are on the other side on the publishing side and the business side of it. Um, and you're still actively working. [46:51] I think that's important to hear your take. [46:55] So I really appreciate you coming, man, you know, to the show. [46:59] Thanks for having me anytime, Trev, you know, absolutely. [47:08] And by the way, ladies and gentlemen, Steve and I used to work together a long time ago, and these are two things I'll never forget. Steve said, Hey man, take this. [47:14] And he gave me a set of how to win friend and influence people. It was a CD set back then. Amazing what it did. [47:19] I'm constantly quoting stuff and living by stuff that I've remembered from learning from that. [47:23] And you sent me the piano lessons, which I sucked at, but you still sent me there. [47:31] And, you know, it just speaks to the thing about always trying to develop yourself and trying to do something else, you know, so, [47:40] You know, me being a developer now and having, you know, all these apps on the app store that I created and all this stuff, it's still the same mentality of always trying to be pushing for something. [47:47] And you're still doing that, even though you could have stopped a long time ago, but you're still out here pushing. [47:53] So I'm trying to get better at my instrument. Yeah. Hey man, you know, that's it. Yeah, bro. [47:59] I'm trying to be a better piano player every day. Inspiration, bro. That's very inspirational, man. [48:09] And once again, bro, I appreciate you for coming and, uh, you know, Steve Lindsey, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you Trevor. [48:19] Yeah, man, we're going, we're going to get it together and, uh, you know, one day maybe we'll sit down again, but thanks again for coming, bro. Thank you for having me, Trevor. [48:21] Okay. [48:29] So if you got value from this episode, do me a favor, hit subscribe, drop a like, and share this with somebody who needs to hear it. New episodes drop every week. [48:46] I'm Trevor Lawrence Jr. This is the Trev Beats Show and we out.