Marvin "Smitty" Smith Interview on
The TrevBeats Show 

Full Transcript [0:00] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Nowadays, the way drummers approach playing, the whole gospel chops, they break it down to that. But we can see that it's rooted in the trilogy of drummers like Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl. It's based on that trilogy. I can understand it. Here's the thing. I understand the motivation for why these young drummers play the way they play and develop the technical facility. [0:36] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I understand the motivation. The real question is, what is your intention? Then even deeper than that, what is your impact? Now, your motivation is, I’ve seen Dennis and I've seen Vinnie and I've seen Weckl, you know, do all this stuff. Yeah, I want to do that. Okay, that's your motivation. I get that. Now, what's your intention? Oh, is your intention to impress other drummers so that you could get adulation or do you want to serve the music? And what's your impact? Your impact is, oh, well, I'm just doing this so I can look hot, you know, and be like this hot internet sensation, you know, but the impact is you ain't playing no music and you ain't getting no gig. [1:34] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Real quick, if you're new here, welcome to the TrevBeats Show. Hit subscribe so we can keep building together. And to my regulars who show up every time, I see you. And your viewership means everything. If you ever wanna help fuel this channel so we can do even bigger things, you can grab some fresh gear from the merch store below or jump into the backstage membership next to the subscribe button. Now back to the show. [1:55] [Theme music] [2:14] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: What's up everybody? Welcome back to the TrevBeats Show. Now I know I say this on every show, but today I've got somebody on the show that, you know, has influenced so many people. He was in front of us every night for a while, everybody on our TV screen. And that man is Mr. Marvin Smitty Smith. And Smitty's had one of those careers that covers the whole spectrum, from Sonny Rollins to Dave Holland, Steve Coleman, Grover Washington Jr., Terence Blanchard, the Jazztet featuring Art Farmer and Benny Golson, and then every night for decades on our TV screens, on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. [2:59] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So, what can I say? It's like, this is one of the legends, I'm so glad he was able to come and be on our show today. So ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Marvin Smitty Smith. Oh! [3:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Smitty! Yeah. Hey, hey, Trev, I appreciate you, bro. Hey, Trev, beat, yo, Trev, beat, yo. Hey, man, I gotta give you your props, man. Man, your camera is extra crispy. Thank you, man. Like, you know, like a whole piece at KFC. And I love your drum background there, man, the drum setup in the background. And I gotta let the audience know, man, you've always been like at the forefront, pioneer man with the technology, whether it was, you know, playing with tracks and, you know, getting into programming, drum programming and, you know, dealing with the electronics, you’re an avid photographer. [3:57] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So, you know, this whole camera setup and everything, man, the detail that you have, man. I mean, you really push the envelope forward, man, and much respect to you for that, bro. I appreciate it, bro. [4:09] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: You know, these are all my hobbies, and they kind of all came together and converged, you know? And it's crazy because, you know, at first, I was a little bit, you know, apprehensive of doing this show. Like, I wasn't really, you know, I was pushing back a little. My wife was on my head about it, And I was like, yeah, you know, I'm a player and all this stuff and do all that. And then kind of over that time, the whole culture starts shifting, you know, and then podcasts started being, you know, more and more normalized and then it kind of just became a real major source of, you know, media. [4:47] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: And so I finally got into doing it. And man, you know, we've had a great run. I've had some beautiful guests, man, some amazing moments. Thankfully we got to give, you know, James Gadson and his flowers, you know what I'm saying, before he left us. And, you know, man, you know, and now we have you here today, man. And I'm just happy that you're able to be here because man, you’ve influenced so many people, so many of my guests, you know, you've, I don't know if you've seen it, but I mean, you've been on the show. I’ve cut to clips of people talking about you before because you've influenced so many people. [5:22] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So, you know, man, just once again, I have to just say thank you for coming out, man. and I'm gonna enjoy this conversation. So off rip, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, all good, man. Off rip, I know some of these things, but I'm gonna ask you things because I want the audience to know. So first of all, tell us where you're from and what made you get into wanting to play the drums. [5:49] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well, I'm originally born and raised in a small town called Waukegan, Illinois, which is 45 miles north of Chicago. my dad was a huge jazz aficionado. He loved the music and he liked drums. So he tried to play a little drums. He dabbled, he did his little share of gigs here and there, but I mean, he had a wife and five kids, you know? [6:21] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I mean, by the time, you know. So, you know, but he worked the steel mill, you know, US Steel, he worked there for 30 years, you know, he worked two jobs, like over 50 years until he retired. And, but, but he, you know, he'd get up early in the morning, you know, like about four or 30, you know, like, and then he had to head down to the steel mill. He worked there, get home just in time for dinner. And then he'd go to a second job. [6:54] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Right. And then he'd come back home like about 11 o'clock at night and do that whole process over. He did that over 50 years, man. But anyway, he dabbled in drums and the story that my parents told me was when I was a little baby, I mean, I'm like six months and my dad, we used to, well, at the time I was born, we were living in my grandmother's house, my father's mother's house. So he had a drum kit set up in like the den room. [7:30] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And, you know, he would practice. And he told me, like, I would crawl, you know, into the room and then there was a chair. And I would crawl onto the chair and just watch him practice until I would fall asleep. And he would practice. And then he said, when he would take a break and go in the kitchen to get some water, She heard this little boom on the kick drum. So I'm using my hands to hit the pedal, to hit the kick drum. And then from there, they told me that I went into the kitchen and went into the cabinet and start pulling out like pots and pans and just start beating all pots and pans. [8:13] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: That was when I was about six months old. And so it was when I was three years old, my godfather, this guy named James Morton, a friend of my dad's, he bought me a practice pad and a pair of sticks. And so I started formally, you know, learning drums, you know, training drums. So he gave me the practice pad and pair of sticks and I had the Haskell Harr Drum Method, Book One. You know, Haskell Harr, you know, it was one of those school curriculum books, you know, like a beginner drum book. So I'm learning, you know, you know, whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note, you know, and the rest. And, you know, so I'm sitting up here reading, you know, all this stuff that, you know, like getting the beginners and doing that. [9:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So that was my formal training at three. You know, very interesting. [9:17] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Wow, man. So you, and that was in, what was this? What city was that in? [9:24] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Waukegan, Illinois. Got you. That's a little small town. At the time I was born, it was about 65,000 people there. Right now, as of 2026, I think it's just about 76,000. I haven't grown much, which is why I left. [9:45] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So speaking of that, so from that period, I'd imagine you go through school and everything. So by the time you're listening to high school. [9:55] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Yeah, I started thinking, right, Yeah. Because I started formal training at three, and then my dad was trying to show me things, but he was totally self-taught, right? He couldn’t read music. And he's like, you know, and the father's son relationship. No, man, you're doing that wrong. You know, it was like, I'm trying to, you know. And so he was like, nah, this ain't gonna work. I gotta send him to one of my boys. So my dad, my first teacher that he sent me to, and I was five, and he sent me to this brother named Charlie Williams. [10:31] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And Charlie was such a dope cat, man. You know, my dad would go take me to see him play. And this cat, he was so versatile. He, you know, played trio. He could play like quartet, quintet. He played big band. He played double bass drums at times. You know, like he was just like a real versatile cat. And so my dad, you know, had Charlie start me off, you know, with lessons and stuff. And I studied with him for about two years. And then he moved away and went to New Jersey. [11:05] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: He moved away and went to New Jersey, which at the time seemed far away. And it was only until about 40 years ago, in the mid 80s, when I was living in New York, I guess he got in touch with my dad and got my number, and then he called me. And then just for a few months, we kind of talked You know for a little bit and then I lost touch with him after that and he passed away Like in the mid-’90s. Oh, wow Yeah, but he was my first he was my first drum teacher Charlie man bad cat man really bad cat And so after him I went to another friend of my dad and that was my longest tenure like with this brother named Donald Taylor and Donald was a great cat. [11:57] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I studied with him for like 10 years. And Donald was the cat. He was the kind of guy, he would just say, he said, okay, I got these records. So he'd give me like, you know, Clifford Brown and Max Roach. Then he'd give me Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Like, you know, then he'd give me like, you know, Wayne Shorter Juju with Elvin Jones on it, right? And he'd give me these records. He said, okay, take these records, take them home. and come back next week and show me what you got, what you learned from it, right? [12:30] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So I come back the following week, say, okay, well, you listen, you check them out and the other guy, oh yeah, see, I was like, you know, that's much way like this, you know, he kind of did this thing and then all this, I was like, yeah, that was way to, you know, so I'm trying to replicate whatever, you know, but I was into the music, you know, because that's how I learned. I sat and listened to the records, and man, I would wear the records out. I was listening to them over and over and over. And then I would just sit behind the drums and try to figure things out, you know? [13:03] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And it was like developing my ear. It was like, okay, so, okay, this is how he's phrasing. Okay, this is where he's putting, you know, that phrase in, where it landed in the bar, okay, oh, he's putting it on this beat. Oh, he's putting it over here, okay. And then you just start training your ear to figure out, oh, okay, that's how he's phrasing. And you kind of use some logical deduction in terms of sticking. So you just try to figure things out. So I was into it and Donald saw that I was really like studying, so he would just feed me more records. [13:40] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And so we had a long relationship. So that lasted 10 years and up until, I was like the junior in high school. Then after that, my last teacher was a great drummer in Chicago named Marshall Thompson. If you look up Marshall Thompson, you could see he did some early recordings, with Wayne Shorter on VJ Records when you find the VJ Records. [14:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: He did some of those early, I think Eddie Harris too, the early Eddie Harris recordings there. So he played and he was a chap that was known in Chicago, played around Chicago. His wife played piano and they used to do some trio gigs together. But he played with this other piano player named Eddie Higgins. So I met Marshall, I hadn't heard about him, but I actually finally met him when we did a double bill. [14:44] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I was playing with an octet group and he was playing with Eddie Higgins Trio and it was a double bill. So I got to talk to him and say, yeah, I'd like to study because he has like some buttery brush moves. Like it's sweet, man. And so I want to study one. So I would take the Chicago and Northwestern train, right? Because you know, it just ran, you know, like, you know, you know, up to the state, you know, down. So I would take the Chicago and Northwestern train to, you know, go down to the city, as we always say, and I will get off at Union Station in Chicago, and I would have to walk about 20 minutes down Wabash Avenue, right? To get to this drum shop called Drums Limited was up on the sixth floor. It was like about three doors down from Frank's Drum Shop, you know, that was famous, another famous drum shop. Bill Crowden was the owner of Drums Limited. And so it was up on the sixth floor. And I was taking, I took lessons my last two years in high school with Marshall Thompson, they were seven bucks. [16:01] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I left. And, you know, so we would we would work out on, you know, Podemski, you know, snare drum book, you know, like I did that with Donald Taylor, too, you know, we work out all these, you know, drum books, you know, Wilcoxon and, you know, Podemski, you know, the, you know, other books, too. But, you know, Marshall, Marshall would, you know, show me just like some good brush strokes, you know, just to get a good sound and a feel, you know, so. Yeah. It was great, you know, and then I graduated high school and I couldn't wait to leave Waukegan, Illinois. [16:37] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Did you, after high school, did you go to Berklee? Or did you? [16:43] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, I was thinking about, you know, I was thinking about different schools and I was trying to, you know, I had like, you guys were like, Sam, you, and you know, this over here, that over there. And then it was Donald Taylor that suggested, hey, you should check out Berklee College. music because it's in Boston, closer to New York, you know, like that could be an option, you know, so I was like, okay. So I made the decision to go to Berklee College of Music and man, what a serendipitous move, man, because, you know, by me going there, that's how I met Branford Marsalis, Donald Harrison, Jeff “Tain” Watts, my man, you know, Gene Jackson, Craig Osby, Wallace Roney, Makoto Ozone, John Tusok, and then the guys that were out of school, but they were just still involved and gigging, Kevin Eubanks, Bobby Broom, Ralph Moore, Victor Bailey. [17:46] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And so it was Tommy Campbell, you know, man. It was just, man, it was an amazing time, man. An amazing time. [17:55] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: I mean, everybody on that list, I mean, became the movement of jazz for like decades. You know, after that, it like y'all all became, just changed the whole music and pushed the whole music forward. That's amazing. That was an amazing time to be at that school, man. Like, wow. That's unbelievable. [18:16] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Yeah. It was great. It was great. Because Cats just started migrating to New York one by one. Right. Right. Yeah, you know, because I think, you know, I know Kevin Eubanks and Ralph Moore, they went first from what I remember. they were the first ones we knew who went and then then Brantford went because he got a gig with the Clark Terry big band and he got a gig off of my audition tape. That's crazy. That's crazy. [18:49] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: [The supplied caption file contains a brief transcription gap here.] So I get to the venue and I'm rolling my drums in and I'm 19. I'm setting up my drums and then John walks in and he sees me and he's like, oh, hey kids, how you doing? I was like, oh, hello, Mr. Hendricks. So I went, so where's the drummer? I said, well, I'm the drummer. And he said, wait a minute, you're the drummer? He said, Yeah. I'm drummer and he kind of looked at me like, I don't know about this, this kid is young; he doesn’t seem like he really knows about some swing or something. And the pianist that was on the gig was a teacher at Berklee College named Alex Ulanovsky. And so John goes over to Alex and says, hey Alex, what's up with the kid? And Alex told him, he said, John, you won't be disappointed, this kid can play, you know, he's got it, you know, so you go. So we, you know, we play the first set after the first couple of tunes, he just kind of looks back at me and gives me the, you know, the head nod. And after we finished the week, he was like, Hey, kids, hey, you sound good. [20:26] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: He asked, “Do you want to come to New York with me?”. And I was like, Oh, yeah. So I called my parents every day for about a week, you know, like what should I do? What should I do? My mom wanted me to stay in school, but my dad was like, you know, because he had aspirations somewhat, you know. Of course. And he was like, look, man, you need to jump on this opportunity. So I went to New York. Yeah, man. [20:53] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: That was what? December? Yeah, 1980, December 1980. So you get to New York and you're fresh out of Berklee. So now you're dealing with, you know, you're seeing everybody around you. It's like the whole ballgame now is real and you got people like Sonny Rollins and Hank Jones [21:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Just the best players in the world You know saying and You know like I got to New York it was like, you know, it felt like Stevie Wonder’s “Living for the City”—New York Yeah, it was nice man, I got to you know, I started gigging with Jon Hendricks man and then I was just going to hang at, you know, trying to find some jam sessions. There was a spot called the Jazz Forum. The trumpet player, Mark Morganelli, used to have this spot. It was up on the fifth floor down off of Greenwich Village area. [21:46] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And man, you know, and Jo Jones Jr. Papa Joe's son used to run the jam session there. And so, you know, you know, cats would just migrate, you know, like, you know, just play and try to, you know, get with some heavy cats and, you know, you would get heard, and word of mouth would spread. And yeah, man, I had some, you know, great opportunities. Man, one of my mentors, man, big brother, great alto saxophonist composer, Bobby Watson, man, you know, you know, I got to, you know, jam with him and he heard me. [22:20] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And man, he pulled me in, man, got me doing gigs. That's how I met, you know, playing with him and Curtis Lundy. Yeah. You know, great bass player. And so they had their group together and then Curtis’s sister, Carmen Lundy, you know, I did some gigs with her too. And, you know, it just brought them there. The great pianist, John Hicks, man. Hicks, man. that was intense. Oh, not the microwave, man. that cat was spitting fire, man. He's so beautiful. Love, love Hicks, man. [22:53] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, so I just started meeting cats man, you know, like Frank Foster It was like I did it I did you know, it was a jazz session And Frank Foster came up and played a couple of tunes and then he said hey that you sound good Hey, man, give me your number if I can when I get something I'll be sure to call you You know and I ain't think nothing of it right at the time and then about nine months later I walk into there was this club in Greenwich Village called Lush Life it was right across across the street from where the village gate was. And I walk in and Kenny Barron was playing, he was playing with Bobby Hutcherson. [23:30] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And so I walk in and Kenny Barron sees me, he says, hey Smidgey, hey man Frank Foster's looking for you. He's putting the Two Frankss back together, Frank Foster and Frank Wess. He said he was back in the city. And he said, he's putting the Two Frankss back together and he wants you, me and Rufus Reid, you know, to do the record. So it was like, so this was nine months after I just played like two tunes on the jam session with Frank Foster. So he called me, that's how I ended up recording and playing with the Two Franksss. You know, so it was great. [24:04] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: But here, now here's the degree of separation between you and I. So this was like, this was 1984. And So the Jazztet, Art Farmer and Benny Golson’s Jazztet with Curtis Fuller, they were playing a week at Fat Tuesday, Club Fat Tuesday on the East Side. The great Billy Hart was playing in the band. Billy called me, he says, hey, I need you to sub for me on this gig with the Jazztet. [24:45] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Now back in those days, a gig was like six nights at the Village Vanguard, Sweet Basil, all the clubs booked six nights, you could get six nights, which was great. So Billy told me that he needed me to sub for him on the last night. Oh, wow. It was Tuesday through Sunday. So I needed to sub for him on the last night, that Sunday night. Now, Billy waited until the Tuesday when the gig started to let Benny and Art know, hey man, I'm going to be out on the last night. [25:27] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I got to go to Europe on a tour. And so, you know, Benny and Art obviously wasn't really pleased with, you know, Billy letting them know like the first day of the gig that hey I got leave on the last day of the gig right so anyway I come down like the third night you know to check out the music Billy gave me a copy of like some of the charts I had a couple of the recordings of recent recordings at the time so you know I was listening and studying and I went by that one night to listen in here and so now the Sunday comes last night. Of course, I'm there early all set up and I'll never forget this We're in the dressing room right before we go on stage and our farmer looks at me and he goes Well young man What would you like to play because they just figured they'll just play standards all night tonight, right? [26:26] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well young man, what would you like to play and I said well So, Art, Benny, I'm here to play your music. I came down earlier in the week, I listened, I listened to the record, I looked at some of the charts, I'm ready to play your music. So, get up on stage. The first chart that, the first tune that we played was, it was a newer tune of Benny’s called Moment to Moment. And it had some hits right at the top, You know, ba-ba-da, da-da, da-ba-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, you know, and this whole thing. [27:06] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So, we played the tune and did our thing, and then right after we finish, Art Farmer gets on the mic. Ladies and gentlemen, you are witnessing something, you know, great right now. This young man, he's never worked with us before, and, you know, he's come in, and he's like, you know, just this first song, he's played it, you know, amazingly, you know, these, you know, went into this whole thing, man. And I remember on after the first set, I was talking with Benny. Now for the audience, Benny Golson is Trevor's uncle. Okay. [27:42] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So now I'm on the break, and I'm standing next to Benny. And I said, Oh, hey, Benny, please remind me to give you back the drum book after the gig because I, you know, it's a drum book, You know, you don't want to lose your music. And he goes and you know how Uncle Benny was. You know, maybe I think I want you to hold on to that for a while. Yeah. And I played with that band for like three and a half years. Man, listen, let me tell you all audience. [28:17] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: We have we've already said it. I've said on another episode that live record. called was the name of the record called without delay or was it called what was the name of that no no uh um uh what was it uh no no because it was a double it was a double it was two records that we made out of it the jazz I can't remember the name though I'll put it I'll post it up I'm this record that I'm talking about and I've talked about on other shows has a song called Without Delay and it was definitely done somewhere live. You guys need to listen to this because it's hard to fathom what Smitty was playing and this is the 80s vocabulary wise, the modernist of it and before anybody heard any words of what we talk about now, you have to listen to this to understand what was happening and the story I got from Uncle Benny was this specific song without delay, apparently no drummers in New York could even get through the chart because it was so fast. [29:27] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Yeah, because it was very off tempo. Very fast. Very fast, off tempo, yeah. And Smitty, you know, knowing. Yeah, and the melody just had all these hits, right? Yeah, it's crazy. So that song, we're gonna, I'm gonna put it right here and it'll be linked in the description. And I want you guys to, when you get a moment, check out this song, cause it's gonna blow your mind. But since we're here, we're talking about vocabulary. [29:55] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So, you know, you're in New York, you now establish yourself in New York. So you got people singing your praises and all that kind of stuff. So this is still primarily in the jazz world, and like, you know, jazz with vocalists, instrumental jazz, all that. That's amazing. So, you know, one of the interesting things about your playing is that you have that foundation, but then you can go flip it and go do stuff like Steve Coleman and the M-Base stuff, right? Which if you all don't know what that is, is very involved, a lot of time signature is it's very, very involved music. [30:37] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: It's not just let's play a pocket and have some solos. This is very high level musicianship music. And Smitty went over there and it was like, yeah, what else you got? It was like nothing. And it's like, you know, then we saw you jump and go to Jay Leno where you're playing now the whole gamut of commercial music on any given night. So when it comes to vocabulary, you know, how did you develop your vocabulary without sounding generic? because each one of those things, it sounds like that's all you do. [31:12] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: You know what I mean? So how did that happen? [31:16] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well, Trev, it just goes back to my childhood. See, so I'm a radio kid. I'm a radio kid. I grew up listening to the radio. And the radio just had just music. It was just all out there. Two or three different stations, but I was listening to pop music you know, on one station, the other, you know, other stations, you know, they lean more towards soul in R&B, you know, and then they had, you know, it's like one public radio station that would play jazz, right? And then my dad having a bunch of records, jazz records, right? [31:57] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So all of that was, you know, I absorbed all of that, you know, listening to the radio the pop tones and the soul and R&B and funk. And so I was just playing to the radio, I play along with the songs, and then later on when I started to play gigs, when I was a freshman in high school, well, 13 when I started my first professional gig, first professional gig was with a rehearsal big band. But when I started to make a little money, okay, I would maybe go to the record store and buy a record here or there. [32:34] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: But I was just listening to the radio play along to whatever song came up and just, you know, you know, it's, it's listening. And this was something that I really like, man, you know, I hate to sound like an old, salty guy, but I'm 65 now. And I'm the old, wealthy guy now, because he's, you know, young cats that I and you count it, you know, like, you know, you got to sit and listen. You got to study the music. You got to really intently listen and really start to absorb the language of the music. [33:10] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And, you know, there where you can pick up on a vocabulary of, you know, phrasing, where, okay, you hear the phrases and being able to hear where those phrases lay within the bars or whatever. And then, you know, it's just like a language like English, French, German, whatever. Spanish, you know, you've got to start to speak these, you know, phrases and know where they fit. [33:44] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And then you're able to construct something logical musically. and build from there. So that's all I did was like, listen, just sit, listen, listen and then I get behind the drum. Getting with it. Okay. Oh, wait a minute. Oh, it wasn't there. Oh, it's on this beat. Okay. Now, I got to make it feel authentic. It's in the pocket. So whatever the music was, that's what I did. [34:18] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And of course, as a kid, I was playing in, you know, funk bands, growing up, you know, you know, you do your little gigs where you have like a 10 piece band and we only make like $125 for the whole band, you know what I mean? But those were good learning experiences. And, you know, you just play and you learn and you grow, you just try to internalize and absorb the music. And when I got, you know, music was open to me. It was just all the time. Now, the other thing I studied to your point about the odd meters and all that stuff, like what I listened to was also, you know, like I would listen to, you know, like Cecil Taylor. [34:59] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I listened to the Art Ensemble of Chicago, you know, Muhal, Richard Abrams, you know, and you know, like Albert Ayler, Archie Sheppp, you know, and later Coltrane, where, you know, like, extension, right? Interstellar Space, you know, the duo with Rashid Ali, right? You know, and I'm just trying to do it. And then what really did it for me, like the things that the music that I did with Steve Coleman and Five Elements. My approach with that music can be directly connected to a couple of things. [35:39] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Number one is my study of listening to Miles Davis' band, the Forgotten Band, which was the band with Jack DeJohnette, his birthday just passed a couple of days ago. That's Jack, my hero. It was that band with Jack and Airto. And the sound that they, you know, like the way I heard them play together, to me that was like one sound for me. [36:14] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, the way I heard it. You know, like Jack would play and then Airto would like, you know, find textures, you know, the like compliment where Jack was. And I just tried to incorporate both of those textures. And that was kind of the basic approach that I took playing with Steve Coleman's music. And of course, listening to the fusion, listening to the Mahavishnu Orchestra, listening to Return to Forever, Larry Coryell and the 11th house, and a couple other things in the genre. [36:48] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And just trying to get to it. So I just brought all that to Steve Coleman's music and whatever else. Also, when I got to New York, That's when I felt like there was a real hard divide separation of music, you know, because, you know, the beboppers, you know, it was, it was generational, you know, so you got to be, but you know, they ain't want to hear nothing about no, no rap, no hip hop, no, nothing that wasn’t swing, they ain't want to hear it. But I would play gigs, uptown, I played funk gigs, uptown, R&B gigs, you know, there was this club called Mikel's uptown and then there was a place across the from called The Cellars. [37:32] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And as we're like, Johnny Kemp, he was the singer to Alison Williams, he used to sing down, then I got to play with them a little bit, just a little bit, but I got experience. So I was staying open to the music because I wasn't letting people dictate how I should think about it. He's like, man, I'm receptive to the sound. Wherever that sound is, I'm trying to get to it. So that's the approach I still live by to this day. So. [38:02] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Well, I mean, and it's obvious. I mean, dude, everything you play is so authentic. And what you had to cop being on the Jay Leno show, all those different types of, you know what I'm saying? Grooves and little things and jumping into in and out of character, amazing. But the M-Base stuff, first of all, here's the question I wanna ask, what does the M mean? Do you ever know what that M stands for? [38:27] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well, macro, yeah, Macro-Basic Array of Structured Extemporizations. What? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now, Steve Coleman's a brilliant mind. He's a brilliant mind. And that's what the music sounded like. You know, yeah. The music sounded like that. Yeah. you know. Yeah, it sounded like that type of pedigree. You know what I'm saying? Right. Like Steve was, Steve, you know, Steve got into like, kind of like, you know, little programming, like, cause he had like this Commodore 64, you know, and then at the time there was this music software program called Dr. [39:08] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: T, uh, music, uh, uh, music sequencer or whatever, Dr. T, doc, I think his last name was Fisher actually met the guy, you know, during that period, he actually came to a couple of gigs and I actually met, Dr. D, right? But it was like a music sequencer program where you could just program whatever you're trying to do to sequence it and quantize it and all that. You could get it to generate an algorithmic thing. [39:48] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Steve did, he would put in a basic rhythm and then the algorithm would make it into a certain thing. Like, okay, I want this in seven or this is, but yeah. And it would just come to a thing, and then he would print it out, and then I would look at the part. And then there were certain things where there'd be about five notes hitting at the same time. So I would humanize whatever the part was and make it feel more realistic from a drumming standpoint, if you will. [40:24] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And so that's the way I would, you know, I would just give it some soul. You know what I mean? That's the way I would approach it. So there was a period, and I know you remember this, where [40:35] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: you lived in the same complex as Greg Hutchinson. And he said that... [40:41] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well, when I lived in Brooklyn, I was roommates with Robin Eubanks, the great trombonist and Kevin Eubanks’s brother. And so we're roommates at this Brownstone and I was there for maybe about a year. Okay. Or like eight months or something like that. So one day I'm coming out with my drums because I had a gig and I had to go set up early. So I'm coming out with the drums and then I see this car pull up like at the Brownstone next door. [41:13] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So I see this car pull up, I'm bringing my drums down the brownstone, and this nice black woman comes out, and she says, ''Oh, hey, you play drums.'' I said, ''Yes, I play drums.'' Well, my son plays drums. So it was Greg Hutchinson's mother, Diane, who was a sweet woman. So my son plays drums. I said, ''Oh, you play drums? Yeah. Okay. So you play it. They say, oh, so you guys, you know, you guys, you know, lived next door. Oh yeah, we just moved in, you know, like, that's okay. You play drums. All right. [41:55] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I want to hear something, man. I want to hear something now. All right. I want to hear something. And so, yeah. That's crazy. So after about a couple, two, three weeks or so, I actually like, you know, Greg came by and he brought a buddy with him and his buddy played percussion. And come to find, and as the story goes, his buddy who was the percussionist was Joey De Leon. [42:28] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Oh, that's my man! who is now an L. A. staple. I just played with Joey. Yeah, so they went to the Music & Art High School. and they went to the music and art school that they went to. So they were great. Wow. So I was talking with them. So I got to meet Joey years later when I moved to LA. Joey reminded me, hey man, I met you with Greg, I just went back to Brooklyn. I was like, that was you? Wow. Joey is killer man. When I got with Greg, I was asking him, I said, okay. [43:05] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So you playing in school band, you playing in the jazz band? Yeah. you playing in jazz band. Okay, so you're playing some swing, huh? Yeah. we're trying to play some swing. I said, man, well, How’s your reading? Well, I'm trying to get it together. I said, look, man. I said, so I had, now this was 1984, right? Okay. About 80, 84, 85, somewhere in there. So I told Greg, So I said, I gave him about six or seven cassette tapes, you know, like Max Roach, Art Blakey, you know, Elvin Jones, Billy Higgins. Yeah, I said, here, I said, man, take these cassettes, just sit and listen and study these, these tapes, study them. And, you know, when, when you're finished, just bring them back to me, you know, but, but you need to sit and study and listen, you know, listen and really learn how to get to the point and really study. These are the masters. [44:08] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So get in there, right? So now we're next door to each other, right? So he had his drums set up in his bedroom. I can hear them. And so I am in there. First he's like boom, bah, boom, boom, bah, boom, I don't know. So he was starting to get and then gradually day by day The swing section getting longer and longer man And then man within like six months, man, I bumped into him on the street, you know coming home He said hey, hey, I got the gig with red riding. I was like, oh Man, beautiful man, congrats man. [44:57] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And so he started doing some gigs with Red Rodney and then it was like maybe about another three months after that, hey, it's me, I got the gig with Betty Carter. I was like, oh, whoa, okay bro. Hey man, look, congratulations man, you're gonna learn a lot, man. Look, I'm gonna tell you right now, you know, just take the message. You don't forget about the messenger because it might not be delivered in a way that you're gonna dig. but dig what she’s trying to school you on, right? But he just blossomed from there, man. [45:30] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: He took off, man. Yeah. that's crazy. I got a piece of, you know, I guess I have a piece of his influences and I'm grateful for that. Well, no, I mean, it's amazing [45:41] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: because he just was on the show and said that he used to also sit up and listen to you play and be trying to go through his odd meters and, you know, on the other side and try to see what's going on. Like, oh man, Smitty's playing. Let me try to, you know, so, but you know, that speaks to how the climate, you know, it is in a lot of ways, but it definitely was back then, you know, with people trying to lift each other up, you know, especially drummers trying to, you know, better each other. And it's funny you just said that analogy about the messenger because Gordon Campbell was on the show and said the exact same thing. [46:15] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: It's like, you know, if somebody tells you there's a pothole on the street, are you gonna run over it? Cause you don't like the way they said it. Or are you gonna try it? You know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's exactly what you told him about Betty. It may come harsh, but it's gonna be to make you better. And I think that we're in a place now where there's just a lot of thin skin and people just, they can't take any criticism at all. And that's what makes us better as humans. It's what parents, when you raise your kids, certain kids have behavioral problems because no one ever told them, this is the wrong thing to do. [46:52] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: they want to make conditions and medical names and all that? No, it's called bad parenting and tell your kids no. You know what I'm saying? I'm reading now that even the scale from both of our lives now, the scale of grading now is a B is what a D was now. So for us, so it's like, it's, or something close to that. It's everything has dropped. So it's just unreal. and how we've seen in these generations that go away. And I think the music has been a little bit affected by that too, because now you have people that are just doing the copy thing rather than trying to do their own research and their own voice and learn their own way of playing because they're not doing that because nobody's telling them to do that, right? [47:41] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So it's like- No, absolutely. You're coming from, you know, it's like the last generation of the old way. And I hope that something can happen to, you know, kind of get things back on track. I mean, there's always gonna be people that stand out, of course, amazing drummers in every generation, but it's just a weird thing as far as, you know, everybody now that's older has done something, gets cast aside and you're unkin' and you're dissin' like of a negative thing, as opposed to how we look at our elders, like we put them on a pedestal, you know what I'm sayin'? [48:16] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Of like, yo, Tony and Elvin, these guys were incredible. Now it's kind of like this generation looks at our age as, oh, that's ump, whatever, like, okay. I mean, we'll see how this, in history, in the future, we'll see how this ends up. But I do wanna talk about the Tonight Show, man, because the Tonight Show is just, The whole thing was very, how can I say it? [48:52] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: It was just interesting to see that changing in the guard. You know what I'm saying? From Johnny Carson to Jay Leno, right? So tell me about how that whole thing happened, man, because that's just an amazing part of your journey coming from a jazz guy from Waukegan, Illinois. So tell me how did that, how did that happen for Jay Leno, man? What was that journey? Yeah. [49:17] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well, the first thing, because I want to make sure we point out what you just mentioned about that was a significant shift, seismic shift from Johnny Carson with Doc Severinsen and the big band and all that. And now you get Jay Leno, which the whole transition of Jay Leno taking over the Tonight Show was embroiled in controversy in and of itself, right? [49:51] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Right. So, Jay Leno takes over and Jay specifically requested Branford Marsalis to be the music director for the show, right? And they're bringing it in. So that was significant. So now, in the history of the, now you have this black band leader, right? And he was coming out of New York. He wasn't a guy that was established in the LA, recording scene or music scene, whatever. [50:23] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Here's basically considered an outsider coming in to Los Angeles to be a music director for a television show, which TV is a lucrative thing, right? So there was a lot of, there was a lot of heat. There's some haterations towards Brantford. Why is this guy taking over the talk show, he's coming out of New York, there are cats here, all that drama. [50:56] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So Brantford brought, you brought Bob Hurst on bass, Kenny Kirkland on piano, he brought in Kevin Eubanks on guitar, and he filled out the rest. So that was revolutionary in and of itself in that respect. So after two and a half years, Brantford decided, this ain't really for me. I'd rather be out with my band touring. I was doing that before I got the show and I just don't feel all this. [51:33] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So I just wanna go back to doing my thing. And so it was like, whoa, okay. All right, well, you want to do that. And then, you know, uh, Brancher, you know, like, Hey, yo, Kevin, you know, Hey man, you take over as MD, right? So you, you know, you take over the, you know, the MD role for the show. Now, I'll never forget this trail. It was a Friday night. I'm in a recording session. Yeah. You know, and I get this phone call at midnight. [52:07] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Friday night, midnight, I'm in this recording session. My wife at the time, my ex at the time, well, my ex now, my wife at the time, she calls me, she says, hey, you know, you need to call Kevin, you think, cause he just called me, he said, it's urgent. You need to call him back, right? So this is midnight on a Friday. So I called him and he said, yo, Kel, you know, What's up, man? He said, hey, man, look, it's about to go down. [52:42] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, I'm taking over as MD for the Tonight Show. And you got to come out here and do this with me. I was like, what? He said, look, man, I got a one-way ticket. You know, I got a one-way ticket from JFK to LAX, man. It's waiting for you. first thing smoking, 6 AM. So I was like, oh, OK, bro. So man, I had to just pack whatever clothes and okay, well, I'm gonna just take, you know, I'm gonna take some cymbal zero that, you know, hopefully fit the show. [53:16] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And I take that, it took my kit and man, first thing smoking on that Sunday morning, you know, I land, Kevin takes me up. We go, you know, we go straight to the NBC studio. And you already had, you know, everything arranged. I had a Pearl drum kit. At that time, I went for it, man. I had the double bass drum. I had the red kit. That's what I was going for, right? And so, you know, we set everything up. You had to dial in all the sounds and get things together. I had to learn, you know, the countdown to do the intro for the show and all that, man. [53:53] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And it was just like right there, man. That following Monday, bam, man. just go in there. Man, that first week, man, I could, I'm looking at the studio that first week, I'm looking around like, wow, man, I can't even believe I'm here, man. You know, like, wow, man. That was wow, man. But 15 and a half years, man, it was a joyful experience. And here's the thing, here's the thing that I want, yeah, man, I was, well, well, my ex, it was my now ex-wife, number two, She enjoyed it more than I did. [54:27] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Okay, so they know we're just, that's a life discussion. But now, but here's the thing that I wanna impart on drummer, but you know, and it goes for all musicians as well, but you know, this is Cher V. Show, this is Bob Drunk. So I wanna impart this to any listener or viewers about, you know, having, you know, doing a television show, right? Okay. First of all, I want to let people know, I want to let the drummers know. Man, me personally, I learned some valuable things from working on a television show playing music. [55:09] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I learned some valuable things. I want to stretch this to the viewers, the drummers out there. You know, just because a gig like doing a television show. See now, the thing you have to understand as a musician playing in a house band on the TV show, you are the third option. The first option is the host. The second option are the guests that come on the show. And we're the third option. [55:41] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: We're the option of we're basically cheerleaders that keep the studio audience hyped up during the commercial break. Like we were playing music on the commercial breaks when they would go to commercial. You know, so we're playing for the studio audience. You know, so we're basically to keep the audience pumped up. You know, that was our function, basically. So the thing I want young players to understand that just because you're just playing music on commercial breaks and it's not like a gig at a club or at a stadium, you know, like where you can stretch out and play, you know, it doesn't mean that it's less impactful, it doesn't mean that it's less important, it doesn't mean that it's less musical. [56:28] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You can still make plenty of music in that, you know, playing on those commercial breaks. You did like five commercial breaks, you know, in the course of a show. You can still get to the music in that kind of function. You just got to understand what the context and your purpose within that structure is. Don't try to make it like playing at the baked potato or the village vanguard or some theater. Don't try to make it that. It's not that. Understand your function, understand your role and purpose within your function. And you can make the music in whatever situation you're in. [57:13] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And I learned a lot of valuable things from doing the show. One thing that it did, Trevor, just to bring up your point from earlier, was that, man, I got back to playing a lot of tunes that I grew up listening to as a kid, these pop tunes, some rock tunes, some pop tunes. And it was like, but, you know, being like, you know, whatever, 20, 30 years older, like, man, it was a deeper appreciation for those songs. And here's the other lesson that I learned. [57:47] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, it's more of a reaffirmation, I should say. It really helped me get into a deeper focus about time, about feel, about grooves. It helped sharpen those sensibilities for me. I really appreciated that. because man, you know, like, man, yeah, okay. [58:22] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: All these little nuances, oh yeah, now it's, you know, it makes a difference in the field if I, you know, just make, you know, certain little, you know, adjustments, musical adjustments, you know, to like, oh, yeah, man, now that feels like it's more in the pocket now. You know, like, you know, my ears got sharper, you know, my sensibilities got sharper, you know, And that's what that gig did for me, man. And I appreciate that experience, man. So I want all the younger players to understand that. [58:52] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Yeah, I mean, your touch, listen, one thing that's for sure is that, along with a lot of the other great drummers, but it's like, you can notice, like identify somebody's playing sometimes by how they hit the drums, you know what I mean? And it's like with you, the way you just said, you have to, in those kinds of situations, you have to adjust sometimes the approach and how you're hitting the drum, where you're hitting the drum, how you phrase something. That all is part of the authenticity of the music. So saying that you sharpen those skills, I mean, that makes a lot of sense because you're going through the whole gamut. [59:28] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Could be, you know, any given night. It could be the whole spectrum. And us as listeners on the outside, it was just always killing, man. It was always killing. And to do that so many years, I mean, first of all, it takes a lot of discipline. And second of all, you know, a lot of discipline. Second of all, what I wanna ask is to supplement that. Did you find yourself practicing more or did you, after you were done, like, hey, I wanna, I gotta just chill out for the rest of the day and get ready to get up super early in the morning. [1:00:00] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Like, did you do anything to offset the fact that you were kinda just stop, start, stop, start, stop, start, not like a regular gig where you're just constantly playing. Did you have to develop a routine during those years? [1:00:14] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Oh yeah, man, no, I love practicing, man. You know, I was always a practice hound. You know, so I love practicing, you know, and you know, from doing the show trip, you know, here's the other lesson that I want to impart on the young players and viewers out there. Here's the other thing, you know, doing a television show, you know, We were five nights a week, Monday through Friday, right? So you're doing a show five days a week. And if you do it for any length of time, right? [1:00:46] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Whether it's a year, five years, 10 years, whatever. You know, like, you know, obviously it's, you know, it's the grind, right? It's the grind because you're doing it consistently, you know, this whole thing. So here's, you know, here's the thing, you know, Like what can happen is that you can mentally wear down. You know, that kind of work situation can wear you down because it can become monotonous. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna come in. [1:01:19] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Yeah, we can play the commercial break. Yeah. you do this, okay. Yeah, you know, you keep doing that week after week, you know, it could get monotonous. And what can happen is that you can kind of like kind of get your brain, your mentality in kind of like an automatic pilot where you kind of just, okay, you just clock in, do your thing, it's over, okay, clock out and, you know, and then go, you know, just kind of, you know, just, you know, be compressed or whatever, you know, or just not want to do anything. But what that get, what doing the show that Tonight Show did for me was, man, I was, you know, because I wanted to practice because I wanted to be in shape. And here's the thing, how I flipped it for me, 15, and a half years, I did over like 3200 shows in my 15 and a half years. So, here's the thing, here's the thing that I did, I took the opportunity of the job as a chairman. I wanted to challenge myself each and every day like okay man I'm in the shed you know because we take in the afternoon we take like four o'clock in the afternoon so but before you know before the gig you know before I had to you know clock in so you know we had to come in at like one one o'clock right and whatever show rehearsal it was like one to three o'clock with show rehearsals then they let the audience in at three tape the show in real time at four five o'clock out to do it. But before then, I'm going in the shed from like 10am to like about 1 when I gotta go. So I'm in the shed, I'm trying to keep my chops up number one. And number two, I'm just trying to work on grooves and things. So here's how I approach doing the show. Whatever we had to do musically, and whatever songs that we had to learn and prepare to play, I took it as a challenge like, man, I wanted to nail each and every commercial break. Every song that we played, I wanted to nail the groove, I wanted to nail the dynamics, I wanted to nail the arc of the arrangement. [1:03:36] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I got into that. I just want to give the music the best support I can possibly provide. That was a personal challenge that I put to myself to try to do that gig so that that from doing it week after week after week, I would stay motivated and energized. You know, cause some cats could tune out and as a result, they couldn't last long enough. They might be there for a year or two or something then, you know, they just couldn't take it anymore because they just, they felt trapped. [1:04:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: See, and that's a mental thing. So man, I'm finding the freedom in, you know, hey man, I'm playing music man. How bad, okay, it ain't the Village Vanguard, it ain't the baked potato, it ain't Carnegie Hall, but man, I'm on my instrument playing music, man. That's right. It's gotta be good. Come on, y'all. Yeah, for millions. You gotta change your perspective on it, man. For millions of people. Find the freedom in what you do, man. You know, yeah. [1:04:45] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: And you're reaching the homes of millions of people. And, you know, it's like, I mean, obviously, you know, financially was lucrative. Now, and that brings me to another question I didn't ask you earlier. So what is the gear that you were, are playing? You mentioned that it was Pearl drums, but give us a list of the gear. And I imagine you're probably still with all those companies today, yes? If I'm not mistaken. Yeah. you know, yeah. [1:05:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So, you know, cause I went through a few iterations when I was on the show. So I had, like I started, like they, you know, they got a Pearl kit from SIR here in Los Angeles, you know, when I first got on the show, cause it was such quick turnaround. So I had a Pearl, like, you know, I had a Masters Maple kit, you know, the very first kit I played on there. Then I got another Masters Maple kit. It was the purple one with the gold-plated hardware, which was nice—old school. And then Pearl had made a master's mahogany shell kit. [1:05:49] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And then I used that one for a little while, like a year and a half, two years, somewhere in there. I wasn't as fond of that sound on those drums. I liked the maple, those were cool. And then the other kit I got after that was the Masterworks. It was a Masterworks kit in that blue, tamo ash. And I used that and you know, that sounded great. And it was on that kit, that Masterworks kit, I actually upgraded to a 24 inch kit. [1:06:25] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Oh wow. And I had to adjust, I had to adjust. And I had Pearl make me a 20-inch floor tom. Oh wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah man. You know, like at first I was using the double bass kit. I had four rack toms, two floor, you know, I didn't, I actually had the 18 on the left at a certain period and I had all this stuff and I was trying to go for it, right? But the problem was, the problem was I couldn't hear all that on the, coming through the TV. [1:06:59] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So after a while, it just didn't make any sense anymore. And then I paired it down to just one rack tom and two floor tom. So it then later I said, you know, man, man, it's with 20- and 22-inch drums on these rock tunes and pop tunes. I just wanted a little more meat, you know, so I upgraded to a 24. And that was an adjustment, man, because I had to sit up, you know, I'm only five foot six, man. I’m a short guy, I had to kind of adjust my idea, like to deal with the 13 inch rack tom and, you know, like, you know, and then when I had a 13 rack, I said, man, I'm going to You know, like, well, the 16 and 18 were okay. [1:07:42] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: But man, I just wanted a little more thunder. I actually had Pearl make me a 20 inch floor tom. And I used a 13 rack, 16 and 20 floor tom. And I did that, man. Yeah, it was crazy, man. Yeah, but, but yeah, man, you know, those are cool. Now talk about, you know, you were talking about the gear And I've been with all my companies for a very long time. My very first endorsement, 1984, Bill Jensen at Zildjian. Man, man, they've been beautiful. [1:08:17] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I'm grateful. 1984, man, heard that. 1985, Pearl drums, man. I'll never forget, I think it was May of 1985. At the time, the president of Pearl US was Walt Johnson personally called me because Billy Hart gave Walt Johnson my number and Walt called me directly and said, man, you know, I got your number from Billy Hart. We'd love for you to be part of the Pearl family. [1:08:50] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And man, I'm so elated, so grateful, man. And man, yeah, to this day, man, you know, we had a little rough patch there, But you know, we cooled it out. And that 40 years, man, you know. Just celebrated, Pearl celebrated this year at NAMM. They celebrated 80 years of drums. And they awarded me, Dennis Chambers, Omar Hakim and Eric Singer a plaque that celebrates the four of us for being with the company of 40 years. [1:09:27] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Wow, man. That's amazing. And let's see. After that, Remo drumheadss, I've been with them officially since 1988. Yeah. And then my drumsticks, Vater Percussion, I've been with them since 1992. So I'm just blessed and grateful. I appreciate the support that all the companies give me. I'm an old jazz guy. I don't ask for money. But hey, if I get on the phone or send an email, they respond. [1:10:00] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So that's all I need. I'm not the new rock guy where they can plaster on billboards or magazines. And if we get the business, we understand. For me, it's the respect. What I've been able to contribute to the music for these many years, it's just about the respect. Hey, you rarely hear from me, But when you do hear from me, you know, I need something. I don't ask for a whole lot. I just, hey, I just need this and that. [1:10:33] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Okay, boom, I'm good. You know, so an endorsement, the young player, an endorsement is a privilege, not a birthright. You know, treat it accordingly. You know, don't, you know, once you get with a company, don't be calling them up every week talking about, hey, I need this, this, that, you’ll start talking to the people in shipping. You know, and you know, like, come on, man. You know, say, you know, know your boundaries. You know, just know what you need. And when you really need something, that's when you get in touch with them. [1:11:10] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And just get what you need. And use that to the best that you can. Yeah, it's a relationship, man. I mean, Pearl, right now, man, Pearl is going through a huge, just, There's so many people, the younger cats, so many cats have gone over there now. I mean, they have a huge showing, you know, from Calvin Rogers and Stanley Randolph is back there. And you know, you got J-Rod, and Q. It's so many people, man. It's a crazy crew right now at Pearl, man. [1:11:43] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So y'all got some, and everybody knows and respects and was influenced by you. So, you know, it's important that I'm so glad you're here because, you know, now people can kind of get to know you [1:11:57] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: because we've heard so many of my guests talk about you and now you're able to tell your story yourself. So here's the question, since we're talking about kind of what's happening, I know we're gonna wrap up soon, but you know, this conversation. I love it. Yeah, so what do you think, you know, we're living in a time like on one side, I gotta say, I've probably never seen more technically sound drummers, right? There's just a crazy amount of technique now, as opposed to, you know, back in the other day. [1:12:31] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So that part is amazing. But what are the young drummers missing now? You know what I'm saying? It's like, technically, okay, we got it because the information's everywhere and it's readily accessible. So a lot of people are taking advantage of that information and just putting the work in, maybe not a concept behind it, but the work ethic is there for a lot of people. But the problem is when there's no foundation, you do get the exact same sound and it's kind of like a switch comes on and it's like, okay, and then it's just like, you can substitute a thousand cats in those moments because it's literally exactly the same, right? [1:13:13] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So, you know, what do you think about what's going on today with the younger generation of drummers? [1:13:23] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Yeah, now see, I could go back to being that old salty guy. You know, but here's the thing, here's the thing, Trevor. And I know you probably experienced this too or have a similar viewpoint. Here's the thing, and I talk about it like this. Nowadays, the way drummers approach playing, the whole gospel chops, they break it down to that. [1:13:55] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: But we can see that it's rooted in the trilogy of drummers like Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl. It's based on that trilogy. I can understand it. Here's the thing. I understand the motivation for why these young drummers play the way they play and develop the technical facility. I understand the motivation. The real question is, what is your intention? [1:14:29] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Then even deeper than that, what is your impact? Now, your motivation is, I’ve seen Dennis and I've seen Vinnie and I've seen Weckl, you know, do all this stuff. Yeah, I want to do that. Okay, that's your motivation. I get that. Now, what's your intention? Oh, is your intention to impress other drummers so that you could get adulation or do you want to serve the music? And what's your impact? Your impact is, oh, well, I'm just doing this so I can look hot, you know, and be like this hot internet sensation, you know, but the impact is you ain't playing no music and you ain't getting no gig. [1:15:20] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So you might want to change your intention and your impact. Oh, what's missing Trevor, what's missing Trevor is the motivation may be the technical wizardry, right? What's missing is you're supposed to be a musician. You gotta play music. So now you gotta learn the language of music, whatever the style is, you gotta learn the language of the music and to be able to play music. [1:15:53] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Man, the percentage of you being able to like blaze on a gig is probably at the very most 2%. 2% and maybe that's even a lot. 99% of it is you laying down the groove, whether it's either swinging or it's just hitting a pop groove or laying down the funk. That's 99%, maybe 99.9. [1:16:27] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: That one little sliver is where you might be able to spit something, right? You know, are you trying to serve your ego? Are you trying to serve the music? You gotta choose, man. And that's gonna make the difference of whether you have a career or you just still gonna be sitting at home making these Instagram videos. You know what I mean? Yeah, no you do. [1:16:51] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: But if you wanna have a career making music, you might wanna learn the language of the music. Yeah, and serve the song once again. I mean, this is what everybody says. I mean, like I said, there are now lucrative ways to make money on social media now. So there are people that can do that and you could sustain yourself. And that's a whole thing that wasn’t there 20 or 30 years ago. So there is that, but that's not gonna be for everyone. So there's far more musical situations out there that need drummers. [1:17:28] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: And I feel like there is this wall sometimes that we see sometimes play out in real time where it's like people that really didn't play a lot of music and then they get on the gig and it's just every two seconds, it's like a fill and every vocal and every, everything. Now, conversely, I did write a book about the reason that drummers now are tasked with being the emotional, the providers of the emotion. And that a lot of that is because artistry has waned and a lot of the artists can't captivate like they used to. [1:18:06] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: You know, when you saw Michael or James Brown. So now what do we see at every show? A video wall, a whole bunch of dancers, all these things to offset that. And so the drums, because we're already able to impart so much emotion, the drummer has been, now that's part of the job. So in that realm, I understand sometimes when I go to these shows and it's just chop, that's what the artist wants. And that's actually what the artist needs, because if not, the audience is gonna be bored. [1:18:39] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So there is that part. And the book is called, The Show Got Louder, the song got smaller, the show got, I keep messing up this doggone title. I don't know why. It's the show got bigger, the song got smaller and the chops got louder. So it's a study on that. So from that perspective, I get it. And that's not any drummer's detriment. They're not overplaying. That's what the gig is requiring. But sometimes you do get situations where it's just not musical. [1:19:14] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: And I think once people get that, you know, serve the song mentality, we need to just keep pushing that mentality and let that keep permeating the drum community because no matter what, we still have to serve the music first. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, but I appreciate your insight on that. So it's 2026, what is Smitty chasing now? [1:19:39] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: What are your goals? What are you into now? like musically, just in general? Well, for me, it's just about just finding ways to keep growing inside the music, right? You know, like I got my couple of little local gigs here with my buddy, the guitar is Jacques Lesure. And, you know, we do like a couple regular hits out here in LA and, you know, we just swinging and we just hit little, you know, like little group hitting their head, you know, play some blues and, you know, so it's interesting because I, you know, I think of it where I heard, I saw a clip on the ’Gram and somebody was talking about, you know, about trees. And, you know, a tree, you know, when people think about trees, you know, they think about, oh, wow, we, you know, oh, you know, We see go the branches the branches and he's growing out, you know branches growing out with but you know, the other thing about trees Trees keep growing from the from the roots The roots grow even deeper down to solidify their foundation so At this point in my career and in my life You know, it's like I'm you know, you know feeling you know, more depth in terms of my foundation or the swing, okay? You know, and it was just beautiful. And I'm always just trying to figure out, you know, I'm always trying to challenge myself in like, how can I best compliment the music, you know, by giving it the best support possible? Each and every song, how can I support it with the best choices, the best options, you best phrasing, I'm still just trying to figure out how I can just make this, make playing music better, making the music sound better. [1:21:42] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: No matter where it goes. Now, I've been occasionally been doing some gigs with my own group. I have an octet, I have an 18 band, I got four horns and rhythm section with percussion. So I'm doing a lot of mostly hard-bop stuff and I do some Latin jazz stuff because I featured a percussionist. So I've been into my Latin jazz stuff and just trying to learn how to just like groove in a Latin jazz, Afro-Cuban based situation. And, you know, man, I'm just trying to expand my sound because, you know, like I say, I'm a kid of the 60s and I'm a teenager of the 70s. So that sound is still in there. At some point, I'm still trying to get my fusion flashback and kind of go for it. [1:22:31] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, I can get to that sound too. You know, but I'm okay, man. You know, but you know what really wins my soul, Trevor, is, you know, seeing some of these young bloods out here. You know, like J-Rod Sullivan, that's Neff. Man, I love that brother, man. I really think he has a great combination of, You know, Groove, you know, Phil, the Chop, you know, the musicality. [1:23:04] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You've got another guy I really like, another guy I really like, Greg Clark Jr. Man, I love his musicality. He's got a great sound. Just a man, the stuff he's done with Stanley Clark, stuff he's done with Will Smith. Man, he's, man, he's, man, he's done Will Smith's gig, man. He really sounds great. And playing with Jeff Lorber, Fusion. He's been doing great things with them. Stanley Randolph, man. Bruh, man, this cat. Man, the Memphis soul steward. [1:23:38] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Man, this cat, bruh, man. This cat got just like, you know, just a funk groove. But man, what people need to teach, they need to teach him playing with the African singer Tems. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Now I need to check him out with Tim. Man, the combination of like, you know, the R&B funk along with like the Afro beat and then the hip hop, man, the combo that he gets playing behind her, man, it's just mind blowing. [1:24:12] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And of course he's been playing with Stevie Wonder for years. So, you know, laying it down. Oh yeah, chilling. And the fact that he's back with Pearl Drums, man, I'm so happy, Ben. I'm so happy for him. So another guy, Marcus Finnie, he was just in town the other day with Kirk Whalum. I went to go see him at the Blue Note here in LA. And man, Nuff Man, just got just an all around, just, you know, groove feel Meister, man. And he gets a great recording sound too, man. I just love the way he approaches things, man. [1:24:46] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: You know, so. That's my bro. That's my bro. Yeah, man, that's Nuff, man. So I'm told, my soul is warm from just seeing all these young cats, man, just getting to the music and really being musical and putting beauty out there, man. You yourself, man, like, you know, the stuff you've done with, you know, Dre and Snoop, you know, Herbie, all the stuff, man. And you get into electronics, man, and you get into the programming, you get into all this stuff, man. I mean, you know, that's so admirable because I'm a dinosaur, you know, in terms of that, So I'm just, you know, I'm just this old guy, man. [1:25:25] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: I just barely learned how to like run Logic Pro, you know, for the little snippet of, you know, like drum tracking that I've done, you know, and I'm still at a novice level. So, but I enjoy it, you know, hopefully somebody will call me to lay down some swing track. But anyway, I'm trying to learn, you know, but, you know, but it's beautiful, man. I mean, I just love to see guys like yourself and all the others, man, just, you know, it's like passing the baton, man. You guys are just taking, man, and y'all running fast and hard and strong, man. [1:26:01] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: And I'm just grateful to be a witness to y'all, man, really. And it inspires me to wanna come back here every single day and get on these drums, man, and try to just like add something to my point. You know, that's all I'm trying to do. [1:26:16] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: But that speaks to, you know, that speaks to your mindset. And there's a tremendous humility in that, you know, having accomplished what you've accomplished and still wanting to push forward and learn and throw yourself into situations, learn new things. I share that mindset for sure. And all those people on that list that you just said, I mean, all friends and just killer musicians, you know what I'm saying? And you know, Stanley's also a phenomenal producer. It's just crazy. I hung out with Marcus not too long ago, earlier this year, and I was on the road, and then they happened to be in, I think I was in Denver or somewhere like that, he was out there with Charlie Hunter. [1:26:57] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So I went and hung out with them. And just another versatile player, like you said, really great recording sound, and just a very nice guy. I mean, it's the future, there's definitely a lot of positive things happening in our world. And I think that even in the form of an example for the people that may not have the foundation, at least they can look at these people that they're seeing at these higher levels and say, okay, that's what I aspire to be. Because that's how we were with you. You know what I mean? [1:27:29] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: That's how we were with you and Tain and your generation is like, bro, for those of us that play jazz, to be jazz cats and then see that you can be on a TV show like that, I mean, there's nobody, I mean, you know, see, because the whole Ed Shaughnessy thing with Doc Severinsen and then with Johnny Carson, that was a, it's an establishment. Like, that didn't even seem far-fetched. It just like, oh yeah, a big band on the Tonight. You know, that's kind of like the old model. So, but to see it be modern jazz cats that we've all seen playing the other world and then seeing them on TV, made everybody feel like, oh, it's possible. [1:28:08] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: And then now, a generation later, what do you have? You got Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson being the MD on Jimmy Fallon. You know what I'm saying? You got, you know, at that time, yeah, you had, you know, Will Kennedy for a minute was with Wayne Brady and you got, so that thing changed late night. Let’s not overlook that. That period changed what was acceptable on a network level for late night. You see what I'm saying? So. [1:28:35] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Yeah. I mean, acceptable, you know, they felt more comfortable. they felt more comfortable to have a black band leader running a TV band. Right? Let's not listen, man. We got it. Reggie Watts was doing, Reggie Watts was doing a, what's with James Corden. Oh Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he did that. You know, like Jon Batiste and, Yeah. You know, did Colbert, right? Yep. You know, so that comfort level to see a black person being able to lead a band, you know, Patrice Rushen did it back in the late 80s. When CBS had their late show, the first iteration of the late show, Patrice Rushen was doing it. [1:29:23] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Sheila E. did the magic hour, right? You know, Sheila E. did for the magic hour, you know, which John Paris was playing drums and they, you know, you know, Shout out to John Paris, Speedy Recovery, man. He's recovering. Speedy Recovery, Yeah. That's how I met John Paris, because they used to tape The Magic Hour across from the Leno show back at that time. Gotcha. You know? But it's great to see that. Yeah, man. And that'll always go down in history, [1:29:50] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: because you'll see everything previous to that, and then you'll see that. I mean, of course, we had Arsenio in that kind of time frame. But still, I think. Yeah, but still, man, it's like that was very historic and you were part of that history, man. So, you know, another props, just more props for that, man. And ladies and gentlemen, you know, this is just a little bit of the surface of what an incredible career Mr. Marvin Smitty Smith has had. And Smitty, I gotta say, now I'm gonna tell a story real quick, just so everybody understands, you know, the mentality here. [1:30:30] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So our dear friend Elmo has a show, a thing he puts on and all you guys know called the JammJam. And J-Rod Sullivan did it with his band Four Corners. And I went down and I was invited down. So I went down to, it was taped at Greg Spero's place, shout out to Greg. And I went down and of course J-Rod's a Pearl artist. So he's playing the drums and then I hear it later and I see Smitty and he's like, Oh yeah, those are my drums. I brought them for J-Rod to use. And I was like, what? [1:31:02] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: So yeah, it's like the reality is, could he have gotten SIR probably? Could he have called Pearl probably? But you're in LA, Smitty's here. That's the young homie. It's like, no, I got you, bro. That mentality is something that we need to always keep going in our community. Cause it doesn't happen enough. It's a little too divided. And well, I'm doing this so I couldn't, I could never bring you no drums. because I'm doing arenas myself and I can't. That mentality amongst ourselves, we gotta always keep that going because that right there speaks to the type of person you are. [1:31:39] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: You didn't, you're the one that influenced all of us. Like it should be the other way around, but here you go in all kind of humility and just being a nice affable individual looking out for your bro. So there you go, man. That's Smitty in a nutshell. You know what I'm saying? So. Yeah. [1:32:00] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Well, look man, this was, you know, to your point Trevor that I appreciate that, but it's really about community, right? You look out for your people. See, so what happened with the JammJam thing, with J Rod, you know, like his band was playing two days later at this club called Spaghettini's out here. So, you know, so he had first told me about the spaghettini's gig, right? And then the JammJam thing came after that. [1:32:34] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: But initially, when I spoke to him, oh, hey, you know, he put the flyer out. I said, hey, man, so, uh, I see, you know, you're playing as spaghettini's, you know, you know, such and such date. He said, yeah, man. Now I know having played Spaghettini’s before, they have a house kit, which is not a Pearl brand house kit. Right? So when I was speaking to J-Rod, I said, hey, J-Rod. I said, man, I'm glad you're bringing the band out here. I mean, it's gonna be great to see. [1:33:07] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Are you cool with drums? Are you getting drums from SIR? Cause I know the house kit is another brand. And so, so now, now here's the other thing for young player. Okay. When you try to be a band leader and you try to put a band together, if you're not like the top echelon, you know, artists, you're working on a shoestring budget, which means financially, you putting your band together and getting gear backline, what stuff can be really tight, you know, and you may not have the funds to be able to like get these things, right. [1:33:44] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So I said, Jayrod. I said, man, what you doing for drums, man, for the, for the Spaghettini gig? You know, uh, well, you know, well, they, they have a house kit. I said, look, man, Jayrod, I know the house kit is another brand. It ain't for, I said, I said, Jayrod. Now you in LA, you can't come to LA and not rip on your pearl drums, man. Come on. So I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I will personally bring my drum for you to play. So you have pearl drum to play on because I know how much cartage and delivery cost. Yeah, I know what it costs and they was charging a grip I said and I know the band is on a budget. I Know you ain't really got all that to spare. I said look bruh. I will personally bring my drums. I will be your drum tech Set them up the way you want And I told them the way he you know, his tuning because I listened to the way he tuned the drums So I tuned them all, you know, like where he had them, man. [1:34:47] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: He was terrific. But then he called me. He said, Hey, man, we're doing the JammJam two days earlier. So can you bring the drum? Oh, sure, man. Little did I know that Mike Mitchell was playing. Oh, yeah. I was there. He was about to beat my drum. He was about to beat my drums mercilessly, man. I saw that. I was there, man. I was still right behind there. You know, like Mitchell, he bent my kick beater. I was there man. I was right behind there. You know like Mitchell, he bent my kick beater. What? He bent it. He bent it backwards man. That boy is wrong man. [1:35:19] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: Wow man that's crazy. That boy is wrong. That's crazy. I had to get J-Rod’s pedal to put it in the middle of this set. Cause he just bent my beater up. I was like, this boy crazy. I never heard that man. That's wild. Yeah man, it's wild man. But to your point Trev, man, it's the community. I'm looking out for my people, man. So I wanted to do that for J-Rod. Cause he's coming out here again to play Spaghettini in September. [1:35:54] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: So I'm bringing a kit for him to play on again for that show. I'm gonna have to pull up. I'm gonna have to pull up up there. I think I played a spaghettini on their opening weekend, like in 1993 or ’92. Woo, yeah, that's tight. [1:36:11] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Wow, man. But listen, man, ladies and gentlemen, Smitty, bro, it's been just a pleasure, man. Listen, man, I've been wanting to get you on for a long time. And we've got so many friends and so many things. But the one thing, and people that watch my show, you can go through various episodes. like everybody loves and respects Marvin Smitty Smith. So thank you so much for coming on the TrevBeats Show, man. Really appreciate it, man. Thank you, Trevor, man. [1:36:42] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: This is an honor and pleasure and privilege, man, to be part of the legacy of your program, man. And what you're doing is such a great service, man, for guys to tell our stories and for people to get exposed to who we are, that normally probably wouldn't get that kind of notoriety or exposure, you know? So you're doing such a great service for the drum community, man. And I appreciate you. I love you, bruv, man. Thank you so much for having me here, man. [1:37:15] Marvin “Smitty” Smith: It was truly an honor. [1:37:17] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: Thank you, Smitty, man. Appreciate you, bro. Well, we will definitely get up, man, and I'll see you around. I'll probably be at that gig, and I'm gonna pull up to one of your gigs with Jacques too. And man, thanks again, man. Marvin “Smitty” Smith, ladies and gentlemen. All right. Okay, so if you got value from this episode, do me a favor. Hit subscribe, drop a like, and share this with somebody who needs to hear it. New episodes drop every week. I'm Trevor Lawrence Jr., this is TrevBeats Show, and we out. It's the TrevBeats Show and we out. We out. It's the TrevBeats Show and we out. [1:37:56] Trevor Lawrence Jr.: It's the Trev Beat. It's the TrevBeats Show and we out.