John Patitucci Interview on
The TrevBeats Show 

[0:00] So I was learning how to produce my records because he did the first one and he said, you got it. After that, I produced all my records. [0:07] Bernie Kirsh was my engineer, the same guy who did his records. [0:10] And we, I mean, I flew Brecker in, I had, you know, I had a budget, even though, you know, by those standards, it was a low budget, but by now standard, it was pretty good. [0:18] And so I would use the budget wisely. [0:21] I would take the money and then I would throw in my advance, which wasn't much to get the best players. [0:26] And those records, the first five or six records that I made were done that way. [0:30] All that stuff was happening because Chick had opened up his world so that we could make records. [1:14] What's up everybody. Welcome back to the TrevBeats Show. We don't just talk about chops. [1:19] We break down the DNA of music, break down the DNA of business. [1:23] We talk about AI, we talk about a whole bunch of stuff, but today's guest is very special to me personally and just special in general because of the contribution. [1:33] The contribution is something that we also talk about a lot here. [1:37] And all my guests have contributed to this thing we call music. [1:41] He doesn't need an introduction, but I'm going to give him one anyway. [1:43] So as you all know, he was one of the people that anchored that incredible rhythm section of the Chick Corea electric and Akoustic Band that was so influential and iconic. [1:54] And then went on for over 20 years being in that incredible iconic band with Wayne Shorter alongside Danilo Pérez and the inimitable Mr. [2:04] Brian Blade. [2:06] And he has deep Brooklyn roots, but he's also all over the world writing all types of different types of music. [2:13] He has things like his latest album, Spirit Fall, the Yotam Silberstein Trio project. [2:18] He just continues to define what it means to be a complete 360 degree musician. [2:23] And you know, we talk about 360 here in the show. [2:26] So, you know, without further ado, I have to introduce the incredible John Patitucci. [2:42] Wow. Oh, my gosh, man. Well, let me tell you something, John. [2:47] This is this is a big one for me, man, because, you know, it's like I mean, you know, you still look the same, which is just unbelievable. [2:54] You know, when I was a kid playing your music every day and now here you go looking exactly the same, you know, 40 years later. Unbelievable. [3:01] But man, thank you so much for coming, man. Thank you. Oh, man, of course, man. Of course. [3:08] So, you know, ladies and gentlemen, listen, one thing I want to get into off rip is if you don't know the lineage here [3:17] of what we're talking about when I mentioned the Chick Corea Akoustic Band or Elektric Band, I have to frame it so you can understand that at the time this was happening, [3:26] a lot of stuff was not what it was. And it ended up being normalized. [3:31] But back then it was very groundbreaking and cutting edge. [3:34] And, you know, we often hear people play Got a Match? and all these other things. [3:38] We hear about Frank Gambale with his thunder lick and all this stuff. [3:42] You know, drummers, you weren't really thinking about splashes and effects before you saw Weckl do it for the most part. [3:47] And bass players, you definitely weren't thinking about six strings. [3:53] So I want to say John Patitucci, my guest today, could very well be the reason that you have a bass that's more than five strings or more than four strings, actually. [4:03] And some of you have five or some of you have six. And this could very well be the reason. [4:08] So if you're not familiar, you need to understand this is a whole nother dimension that we're going to get into right now. So, John. [4:16] Well, can I say one thing, though? [4:18] If it wasn't for Anthony Jackson, none of us would be talking about any of this. Absolutely. Absolutely. [4:24] The original cat, he really inspired me so much. [4:29] But, you know, he was such an individual and a unique player that I knew that I had to, you know, find another way with that. [4:37] Because he was like, you know, I can't say enough of I can't give it up enough to Anthony. I love him. [4:45] You know, we knew. [4:46] And but yeah, you know, I definitely embrace that instrument. [4:51] And it really it made it possible for me to make the orchestrational choices I made in that band with Chick. And that's the reason I got one. [4:59] Ultimately, it was partially because I loved Anthony. I wanted I wanted to check it out. [5:03] But what forced me to go ahead and do it was when I got the gig with Chick. [5:08] So for my own edification, so basically all the whole period of the Elektric Band and all that, that was all six strings. [5:15] So it was always that was your voice in that thing. Well, well, it became my voice. [5:19] But but before I started before when I started with the band, I was only playing four-string. [5:23] Okay, that's what I thought for a short amount of time. [5:25] And then I realized the orchestration, it was just three of us. It was Weckl and me with Chick. [5:30] And so even though we were playing a lot of electric and even some acoustic stuff with just the trio, the original Elektric Band was a trio. [5:38] And and so here I was, I went into the first rehearsal. [5:42] I thought, oh, I can improvise because I was playing with Freddie and all these people. And man, you wiped me out. [5:49] I was like, I guess I can't solo. I don't know what I'm doing. [5:54] And every time he finished with the solo, it's my turn because it's just three of us. Oh, yeah. And he had all these keyboards. And I wanted to play the low notes. [6:01] I said, wait a minute, I need the low string because he's got, you know, rocket ships and and, you know, big, [6:08] giant ships of sounds like, you know, it was like crazy. So I said, man, I got it. I got it. I need that lower string. [6:16] And then for the blowing to get over the top of all that thickness of the synths in the roads and all the stuff, I needed a little extra range. [6:24] And I knew that the six string would have that for me, too. [6:26] And I could sort of pretend that I was trying to be like a tenor player and all that. And that's crazy, man. [6:33] It kind of made it possible for me to deal with the orchestration because I felt like he was so all encompassing what he [6:40] could do that I had to figure out a way that I was still the bass player for the part and then also for [6:49] the improvising that I could peek over the top of all that stuff and still people could hear the melodies I was trying to get to. But it was scary. [6:58] I mean, every time he played a solo, it was just like the end of the world. And then it was my turn. [7:06] And you know one thing that you being a drummer, you understand this. I was always wanting to be a drummer. I wanted to be a drummer. My father wouldn't let me. [7:11] I had bongos when I was a kid, played with the record. But what that did for me was even [7:19] though I was already rhythmically oriented as somebody who was improvising, I had to make my phrases stick and really be, you know, make [7:28] a phrase melodic and lyrical but also stick like this is what I'm hearing, I'm going to play it. [7:35] Because if there was any hesitation, the comping would blow you out of the room. And you'd be like, oh, man, I can't. [7:44] It was like being in the ring with Ali. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine. [7:49] And so now timeline wise, what was the event that made you gravitate towards getting, actually getting the six string? [7:58] Like, what was the story of actually getting the six string bass? [8:01] Okay, so in 1985, I got the gig with Chick. [8:05] We played some gigs in the fall, including the first real major thing. And it was still a trio. We played the Queen Mary Jazz Festival. Miles was on that day with his band. [8:13] I met Daryl Jones. And I knew Scofield. [8:17] And I think he had Stern and Scofield maybe on that gig. And his son, his nephew, Vincent was playing. [8:26] Oh, it might have been Ricky, no, Ricky Wellman was later. Anyway, it was great. [8:31] And he told Chick that he really dug the band. And he asked for two of the tunes. [8:36] He wanted the parts for All Love and what became Rumble. It was called Sequence Eight at first. Wow. And so he liked that. [8:45] And so, you know, Chick asked him, man, Miles, what did you think? He said, it sounds like eight guys. So I don't know. [8:53] I guess he liked it. He said he liked it. But so, you know, so by then, I think I had the six by then. [9:03] But what happened was I I had during this. [9:09] No, maybe I didn't have it by then, because actually in the spring, because in the summer, I went on the road with Sanborn. [9:17] Tom Barney had left. And I was playing all Marcus's music. [9:20] I had my four string jazz bass, 64 jazz. And I was just thumping the whole summer. Didn't take one solo. Wow. [9:27] You know, people always talk about solos, but it's like I didn't make my career playing solos. That's right. I was in LA. I lived in LA for a while. [9:35] And you know, it feels they pay the bills. Yeah. [9:39] Well, it's like and I was coming at R&B anyway, from when I was a kid in New York when I first started playing electric. That was my first act. [9:46] I didn't really I heard Jameson and Chuck Rainey and all these people. And that's what and Willie Weeks later on. [9:53] So those guys kind of that to me was the way to play the bass when I heard Jameson. I didn't even know his name. Yeah. [10:00] Heard him on those Stevie Wonder records, which yeah, crazy. So I was coming from the bottom up. [10:07] And then but then I get this gig and all of a sudden I have to be a soloist like Stanley told me later. [10:12] He said, yeah, man, you know, you're in a very short batch of people to play bass with Chick. [10:18] And he said, that's one of the only gigs I know of that you have to be able to play bass, but you also have to play solos. And you have to improvise. [10:27] So so what happened was I went out on the on the road playing funk all summer because Chick went out with Miroslav and Roy Haynes in the summer of five. [10:37] So I took me to New York playing with Sanborn and I went to visit Ken Smith shop and I tried one and I went, OK, I need this for the fall [10:46] tour because he's killing me with the I mean, it's like I can't I can't hang. And I couldn't play musically anyway. [10:55] I was growing anyway. [10:57] So I put my order in and then I talked actually I talked to Chick and he said, look, I said, man, I can't afford this thing, but I think I need it for the gig. [11:05] Can we work something? [11:06] He said, yeah, I'll buy it and I'll take some money out of your check every every pay paycheck and you'll you'll have it paid off in no time because we were going out forever. Yeah. [11:14] We were never coming back basically. [11:16] And so I don't know how much money was, but it was it was more money than I ever thought of for paying the bass for the bass must have been at least a few grand. [11:25] Nineteen eighty five. That was you know, so I you know, I was used to, you know, the first bass I had was a Sears Telstar. [11:35] 11 minutes, 35 seconds Wow. In Brooklyn, I got it for ten bucks. [11:38] And then the next one was my was my Mustang, which I still have. [11:41] I had restored a seventy two or I think seventy one or seventy two Mustang. Beautiful. Wow. That wasn't much money either. [11:48] It was probably one hundred fifty two hundred bucks or something like that. Well, so, man, it's amazing. [11:54] So that's so OK, so that clarifies a lot for me because I was always wondering what was the catalyst for it. So actually, it was truly a functionality thing. [12:03] I mean, this was literally a necessity. Yeah. Yeah. [12:06] Because I had never been in a gig like that. Yeah. I never played somebody like that. [12:11] And and also the very first gig that we did. Check this out. So I get the gig. That's another long story. [12:18] But when I'm getting the gig and he calls me up one day and he goes, OK, first gig, I said, wow, what are we doing? So, yeah, we're doing the The Merv Griffin Show. [12:27] And Herbie, Chick, you and Tom Brechtlein, that's the band. And I'm like, well, I'm standing there. I'm 25 years old. [12:36] And I look across the street, the set we're playing on national TV and it's Herbie and Chick, you know, Chick and Herbie. [12:43] And I'm just freaking to my heroes. And I'm like, am I really here? Did I die already? Is this heaven? You know what? So that's. [12:52] Yeah. So, yeah, that's what happened. I figured I better get some. [12:57] And he liked the idea of the orchestration, being able to cover the bottom and also function as a soloist because there was nobody else yet. He and I were the soloists. [13:06] And they do. Yeah. [13:08] Well, so but still in the capacity of that band, though, it's like it still served a purpose as the bass stuff on the low and the high stuff for soloing. [13:17] But it's not until we really saw that first album of yours that we really saw it step out in front as the main focus. [13:26] 13 minutes, 26 seconds And that's the album that completely inundated me and my bandmates who, you know, Mike Elizondo, [13:33] you know, John DeVersa and a guitar player by the name of Justin Morel. [13:37] I mean, that was our lives at that point, that album. [13:41] I mean, of course, all the Chick records, too. [13:43] And then when the acoustic record came out, but that album, because you had Peter, Alex, Vinnie and Dave on it, everybody was individual. [13:50] We used to always joke because I think back then pretty much all those guys were Yamaha. So it was like the Yamaha album. We used to joke about that. [13:59] I was like, wait, is this sponsored by Yamaha? But it's like, man, that record, John. [14:04] And it's not just, you know, the compositions that you wrote. [14:07] I know Beasley wrote a couple or whatever, and maybe you wrote them together. You wrote them all? Gotcha. Except for Baja Bajo, the Chick wrote. [14:15] I just wrote the part of the melody and he wrote all that shout chorus stuff [14:22] and all the stuff that's like, you know, all of a sudden, you know, it's almost Afro-Cuban or something like, you know, it's like, and but here's one thing about that record. [14:32] On all the slap stuff, I played four string because I was still, you know, my [14:40] thing with that was I felt like, you know, because because I loved Larry Graham and all that. And Marcus was on the scene already. [14:48] And even though he and I are the same age, roughly, he was a big influence, huge influence on the way I thought it worked music because he also, he could play [14:58] in a jazz setting, you know, produce miles and he was slapping. [15:01] But it was he had some other elements that other cats just did not have. For me. Yeah. [15:06] I mean, he played saxophone, he could arrange he, he was, he was, yeah, Wynton Kelly was his relative. [15:12] You know, he had some other stuff going on. And I love him still. Yeah, one of my favorites. So I was shaped by that. [15:20] And I was coming out of that, because I felt like that was that made sense to me. In the lineage of the slap thing. [15:28] I, I never really became like a, like a screaming bells and whistles slap guy was a rudimentary cat with that could play a few little things. [15:36] But basically, it was good because it kept me from overplaying. Yeah. [15:40] Well, but still, man, I mean, I'm now hearing knowing that now it doesn't really change perspective because, you know, still amazing, but I do hear that now, like the difference between those slap parts. [15:50] And then when you're playing the melodies, you know what I'm saying? [15:52] You know, you can hear now that makes sense to me. [15:55] But the concept of that, I mean, we really hadn't I know that I know, and we've talked about on the show to, you know, definitely the respect and props to Anthony [16:03] Jackson, I mean, without question, but I mean, for a lot of people, it was like, we did, we just hadn't really seen it that out front. [16:12] As a, you know, as the artist, the person whose album it was, you know, who was a bass player, and the bass be that out front like that, and the way [16:20] that it was played, it was never, you know, in the way it didn't seem foreign. It was just very natural. The compositions all lent themselves to it. [16:28] And, man, that was a special record, john. [16:31] And I mean, you know, and even the ones following me that whole time period was just was just crazy, man. [16:37] And it's like, you know, it really influenced a lot of people. Now, I know you've probably heard this debate. [16:42] But a lot of what you all were doing in the Elektric Band, and individually ended up influenced a lot of people in the gospel community. [16:50] You know, I mean, I've spoken with, you know, some of the great gospel drummers of our time, like Calvin Rogers, who was a huge, you know, Weckl was a huge influence [16:57] on what he did, you know, phrasing of how you guys were playing, you know, bass and drums, it carried over into so many different areas. [17:05] And I know that might not have been the intention. But it definitely happened. [17:08] And I think we may be at a generation now that may not even understand. That's why they're doing what they're doing. You know what I'm saying? [17:15] So I know he says that my buddy, Chris Laughlin, Berkeley, he used to play with, you know, Brian McKnight, and a bunch of real gospel killing bass player. [17:27] And, and I met, you know, Derek Hodge and all these guys, and they all talk about they all told me. [17:32] And you know, it's funny for me, because for me, because I got into gospel music, fairly young, when I lived in the Bay Area for a while, I lived in the Bay Area about six years. [17:41] But Hawkins family and all these killers were playing, I didn't even know. I didn't even really didn't. [17:47] I wish I knew what I knew now what I know now then, because was it Joel Smith? Yeah. [17:55] And all that stuff. And crazy, right. And there's so much stuff in the Bay. [18:01] And and that shaped me and I got really into somebody hit me to Andraé Crouch. Yeah. [18:08] When I was really young, and I was playing in church a little bit. [18:13] And these these folks that I was with, and it wasn't even it wasn't a Baptist church or anything like that. [18:21] It was just a church where people were really into that music. Yeah. [18:24] And so later on, I started playing with people associated like some of the one of the background singers for Andre, I used to play with her a little bit. [18:32] So I was playing sometimes some of the same gigs that Andraé was playing in LA. He played on all the hit records. [18:41] I played on some contemporary gospel records, but nowhere near Oh, yeah, what he did. [18:48] And so I was already into gospel music. [18:51] So when somebody told me later on that we had an effect on that I was like, Are you kidding me? I thought it was the other way around. [18:57] I was influenced by Andre and, you know, the Hawkins family and, and that stuff and vocal singers and all that. [19:05] Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that I think that we do, you know, I think those types of things are generationally perpetual, perpetual. [19:14] So it's like it's a constant, you know, yeah, you get it from somewhere and then you push that out, which is the same as you got it in the new P, you know, so it's a it's a constant thing that keeps happening. [19:24] And it's funny, because it's kind of, you know, when you're thinking about things that are cyclic, you start thinking about this whole 360. [19:30] And you can apply that to so many different things. [19:32] We talk about it here sometimes on the show, as the 360 principle, which is like, you know, say if you meet somebody as [19:39] a bass player, and you're in the studio, then maybe your goal is to write with them one day and maybe tour with them one day, you know what I'm saying? [19:47] I call that the 360 principle. [19:49] So you're definitely a person that understands that whole life cycle, because you've moved effortlessly between being a band leader, a sideman, a composer, arranger. [20:00] So when did you realize, like that, you know, you knew you were a great bass player, but when did you realize that that may not be enough? [20:08] And that you need to master like the the entire musical landscape? When did that that part hit you? Wow, I don't know. [20:15] I know one thing that happened, though, that really set things in motion. [20:18] I was really working hard, because I was playing both instruments. [20:21] And I even in college, I was, for a while, I went about three years, and I was studying the double bass and really learning classical stuff, too. [20:29] And then I had to leave, because they wanted me to quit playing everything else. And I left. [20:34] The last two years I was in college, we're at Long Beach State. [20:36] And the bass teacher said, Okay, now you're going to quit playing all that stuff in electric, and you're going to, you know, take auditions and learn the list so you can get yourself an orchestral gig. [20:47] 20 minutes, 47 seconds And then I left. [20:48] So then it really prepared me to be in the studios also, because I had to, I was doing that stuff, too. And I was playing electric. [20:56] You know, also, I got to play on some pop records. [20:58] I played on movies and jingles and all that. [21:01] So I was spreading out and learning a lot. Like Jim Keltner taught me a lot. I got to play with Porcaro. [21:08] I got to play with Harvey Mason. I got to play with John “JR” Robinson. [21:14] I got to play with, Jim Keltner would get me on sessions. Different people, a lot of people. [21:22] And so, but when I got the gig with Chick, and I was always writing things, but I didn't do anything with it. [21:30] I was writing all kinds of music. [21:33] And when I got the gig with Chick one day, I played something for him on the piano. I said, what do you think? He goes, what are you doing? I said, well, what do you mean? He goes, you're writing all this music. You should have a band. [21:42] I'm like, really? Yeah, man, what are you doing? [21:44] You should have a band, and you should be playing, and you should make a record. And I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. How's that going to happen? [21:51] And then he got me a record deal on GRP. [21:54] They weren't interested in a bass player, really, I don't think. [21:59] But he said, no, you've got to sign this guy. [22:05] And so at that time, Eric Marienthal and I got record deals because of Chick. [22:10] And Dave did sign with them too, but he was ahead business-wise already than us. [22:18] I learned a lot from him. [22:19] That's how I got my endorsement thing together, watching him, and him telling me, yeah, you should try this, do this. [22:25] But anyway, so Chick said, because I was already writing, and a lot of the older guys would tell me, the future is you've got to write music too. [22:34] So I was always writing. And I liked a lot of different things. [22:38] I even wrote with a few people, some pop music too, but never really, I didn't stay in that long enough to get things placed. [22:45] Because all of a sudden, I got with the gig, which I was playing with Joe Farrell, I was playing with Hubert Laws, I was playing with Victor Feldman and all these different people. [22:54] But Chick got me that record deal and said, okay, and they want me to help you produce the first record. I was like, fine, that's incredible. Can I ask you one question? [23:03] He said, what? I said, would you play on it too? He said, sure. And then I was like, oh. [23:07] He said, I'm going to show you how to make records also. [23:10] He not only got me the record deal, he showed me how to be on top of the budget, have a plan, who do you want to play, what you want to [23:17] do, how many days, and he gave me a lockout rate at Mad Hatter. [23:25] 600 bucks lockout from 6pm to 9am or whatever, if you needed it. We didn't go that far. So incredible, right there. [23:34] Bernie Kirsh was my engineer, the same guy who did his records. I flew Brecker in. [23:40] I had a budget, even though by those standards, it was a low budget, but by now standards, it was pretty good. [23:48] I would use the budget wisely, I would take the money, and then I would throw in my advance, which wasn't much, to get the best players. [23:56] We would hole up in Mad Hatter, those records, the first five or six records that I made, were done that way. [24:06] We'd track two tunes a night, just chill, get into different things, try different overdubs, and then we would mix for four or five days. [24:15] It was luxurious compared to what happened later in my life. [24:22] So I was learning how to produce my records, because he did the first one, and he said, you got it. After that, I produced all my records. [24:30] The only other one, he partnered with me again on that record called Heart of the Bass, which, because of him, was the first [24:38] time ever there was a record with an orchestral piece that featured six-string bass and acoustic bass with the bow in the same piece. [24:46] Jeff Beal wrote it, the famous film composer. [24:49] Now he's huge, but that was the thing that helped him move to LA, he said. Get to that record. [24:59] All this stuff was happening because Chick had opened up his world so that we could make records. Man, what a coach. [25:07] It speaks to so many people we hear about in that realm. [25:12] We hear that about George Duke, definitely about Herbie, Chick. It's not just the music. [25:20] They impact people's lives, and people learn things from them and carry on. [25:27] That whole relationship happened a lot with Miles, with Wayne and Herbie. It's happening to me with Wayne later. Yeah, exactly. [25:35] That's what we're going to get into for sure. [25:37] All my bass player friends would kill me if we didn't get into a little bit more of the gear of what you're playing [25:45] now and what that setup is looking like, if you care to share it, and what that is. [25:53] What's the current vibe that you're rocking right now? [25:57] Well, right now, in terms of basses, I'm playing the most current six-string that I [26:07] designed for Yamaha, in terms of one that's available anyway. [26:11] That's the JP2, I guess, six-string, which has the cutaway for slapping. That's been around for 26 years, probably. [26:20] I have that butterscotch version of it now, which is a fairly new one, which is a great bass. [26:25] I also have that semi-hollow bass that I had on Brooklyn. That's a big, huge thing. It's heavy. I don't usually take it on the road. It's a one-of-a-kind bass. [26:34] There's only one of them in the world that made it. [26:38] It's beautiful, but I don't take that out much at all anymore. I play that bass a lot. I play my acoustic bass. [26:47] I have an old Gagliano, which is the bass that Art Davis played with Trane, that I have. It's a beautiful old Italian bass. [26:56] Then I have a copy of it made by this guy, Trevor Davis, also, who's amazing. I use that a lot. [27:04] For amps, I've been using Aguilar for years, but I'm also checking out these Italian amps called GRE. [27:11] I think Sklar has them, too. I have to be honest. I'm checking them out, too. [27:21] I've been using the Aguilar for years, the big ones that are tube amps, but also the smaller ones like the AG500s and the little Tone Hammer. [27:31] I'll use a 112 or 410s. [27:36] It depends on how big and loud the band is. For effects, I've been through the gamut. [27:42] With Chick, I had a Bradshaw, one of those big, giant things. [27:47] That was the way it was in the late 80s, early 90s. [27:50] Everybody I saw, Landau and all these guys had those things. Paul Jackson, Junior, everybody had a Bradshaw. [27:56] I got one for a little while with Chick, and it was great because we had roadies and all that stuff. [28:02] Then it was like, what am I doing with all this stuff? I carry this around. I got rid of it. [28:08] Now I have an HX Stomp for my effects, which is great. Then I use some effects. [28:15] Neil Jason has this company now that makes some really nice little pedals that I love. [28:24] Seamoon, S-E-A-M-O-O-N. They have some envelope filter kind of stuff. [28:30] They've got some phasers and octavers that are really good. Yeah, I like those. [28:40] I'm trying to keep mine streamlined because I've been back in New York for 30 years now. I don't have a car. [28:46] This guy rolls up and delivers my stuff and all that. I bring it myself. [28:50] Rob Markman So let me ask you this, going back to the old days because- Yeah, with the Elektric Band and all that? [28:56] Yeah, because man, we all know Dave did something that no drummer was doing really at that point, which was he had the refrigerator racks back then. [29:05] He was basically controlling his own sound for the most part. [29:09] That filtered in even till today with the digital mixers. [29:12] When that kind of was a unique thing, and I even saw some video years later, I think you all did that Akoustic Band kind of reunion thing. [29:22] Even with the Akoustic Band, he had all that kind of stuff. [29:26] The question I have is when you showed up in that situation and he had all that, how did that affect you? [29:32] Because were you all using ears or did you have wedges? [29:35] How did that affect how you were hearing the drums? [29:38] Because were you hearing his process stuff or were you still just hearing regular drums, kick, snare, and overheads or whatever? [29:45] Were you hearing- Yeah, that didn't last that long in the Akoustic Band. That whole thing. [29:56] It's hard to remember. [30:01] I always had an amp in that group [30:08] because he had all that stuff, but I had a smaller amp. It wasn't that big. [30:14] Back in the day, I used Walter Woods amps. [30:17] In the Elektric Band, though, I had, man, I had those Bag End 18 and two 12s. [30:26] Half hour amps and all this crazy stuff. Man, I mean, it was crazy. [30:33] 30 minutes, 33 seconds I used to have a DPX limiter, one of those hats. [30:39] Was it a 160 or whatever for the slap stuff? I had all kinds of stuff. Man, that's so crazy. It was the 80s and 90s, man. [30:47] It was gear crazy. [30:48] Yeah, and everything was still big and it just had the footprint that it had. [30:53] But it was cool to see you on stage. It still was a vibe, man. [30:56] You see all that stuff and it just gave you this feeling of what's about to happen. [31:01] And you all never disappointed, even up to when I was seeing you do that reunion at Catalina's, the new Catalina's, a couple of times. [31:10] Man, it was crazy. You've been known to have said that teaching [31:17] the Berklee Global Jazz Institute is some of the most fun you've ever had. Why is that? You know what I'm saying? What made that so fun? [31:25] Yeah, Danilo Pérez is brilliant. [31:27] Not only amazing genius of a pianist, I mean, his musicianship, his compositional thing, his rhythmic, [31:35] just knowledge of all the African rhythms, how they went through all those countries, through his native Panama, through... [31:47] And I also got from Acuña. [31:49] Alex Acuña was an older brother to me and so was Abel Laboriel. [31:52] I learned about different things like the Peruvian stuff from Alex and Abel had a mixture of many different rhythms. [32:02] Even though he was from Mexico, I think his mom was from Haiti. So he had all this stuff going. It was incredible. [32:11] And then I played with a lot of people. [32:12] One of my first gigs in South American or Central American, whatever, was Airto. [32:18] I got into Brazilian music really young in LA. I became... [32:21] All of a sudden, all these Brazilian guys were calling me. I just fell in because of Joe Farrell. I was playing in Joe Farrell's band. [32:28] And then I got to play with Oscar Castro-Neves. I got to play with Airto. I played with Moacir Santos. [32:36] And then it was like, you know, Dori Caymmi, it went crazy from there. [32:39] Ivan Lins, João Bosco, César Camargo Mariano, all these dudes. [32:45] So then later on when Danilo and I hooked up, when I moved back to New York in 96, I learned a lot from [32:53] him about the clave, about how it functions, not only in Puerto Rican or Afro-Cuban music, but also in the folkloric music of Panama and then Venezuela. [33:06] Also, or in Venezuela, it's gaita or joropo, all these different rhythms. [33:11] I've been studying for years because I feel like it's endless. [33:15] And then I started to get into the Nuyorican stuff, which had Bobby... Bobby Rodriguez. [33:25] When I moved back... Also, yeah, the guys out in LA too. I mean, Alex helped me a lot. A lot. [33:33] He taught me stuff. And I had Bill Summers in my band. [33:37] I had, on my records, I'd have Luis Conte, Alex, and also Paulinho da Costa. [33:48] Paulinho da Costa. Oh, yeah. [33:52] So I was always learning from all these different people. [33:55] And so when I met Danilo, it was like, wow, he opened up all these worlds. [34:02] Not only how to play the right tumbaos and learn how the codes go and to [34:09] play an interface with the percussionist, that was big, and the claves, but also the claves and odd meters and how the odd meters really swing. [34:17] He's killing that. [34:19] 34 minutes, 19 seconds I mean, I got so spoiled playing with him, odd meters, that when people would play the kind of crazy odd meters, it was like, whoa, I got to learn how to [34:27] do that because it's not in my wheelhouse like the other stuff. [34:32] Because with Danilo, he said, the reason why you're doing well with these rhythms is because you grew up playing funk and it's all connected because that was there before funk. [34:41] Funk was influenced by all those rhythms and incorporated all those rhythms in an amazing way. It's been amazing. [34:50] Yeah, you can break down so many things, the clave, man. And the connections are endless, man. [34:57] When you start looking at these lineages, man, these roads and where they end up and where they start, it's absolutely unbelievable. You know what I'm saying? [35:06] That really messed with me. I'm still learning a lot. [35:10] I still transcribe stuff from Eddie Palmieri records or Celia Cruz and all these different... [35:17] It's amazing. These cats are... And Andy Gonzalez was heavy. He died. He was a Nuyorican all-star. [35:26] He was one of the cats played on... [35:28] And they had that band, the records like Rumba Para Monk, the Fort Apache Band from the Bronx. [35:40] Killing. All that worked together. So Danilo and I... He has a way of teaching that's incredible. [35:50] He can really lift up the student but also really tell him what time it is because he knows all the jazz stuff too. [35:58] He plays with kids. He knows all that stuff that people talk [36:04] about, that they love from all the great pianists. He knows all that stuff. [36:14] All of it. Well, that connection is definitely amazing to hear. [36:20] And that brings me to another period, I know, in your life, in your career, which is the Wayne Shorter Band, man, with you and Danilo Wayne and Brian Blade. [36:31] Man, that music is among some of the [36:39] most inspirational and just forward pushing music I've heard since the Trane band. [36:46] It's like, dude, that stuff was so amazing. So how did that band come together? Wow. [36:52] Well, because of Chick, I met Wayne in 86. Okay. He really hit it off. We did a tour. [36:58] He had never really had his own band until after... [37:03] Like a band that was moving different people in and out of it. [37:07] But when he went on tour in 86 with us, it was the Chick, Wayne, and Al tour. [37:13] Al Di Meola, solo guitar, and Wayne Shorter's group with Gary Willis, Tom Brechtlein, and ultimately Mitch [37:20] Foreman and Wayne Killing, playing all this stuff from Atlantis. So I met him then. We really hit it off. [37:29] The very next year, he hired me to play on tracks for a couple of tracks on Phantom Navigator. [37:35] And then in the late 80s, early 90s, he would call me every once in a while to join and come and play. [37:44] And sometimes I could make it. Chick had me. [37:46] I was tied up for 10 years straight, really, with two bands. [37:51] But then when I left to do my own thing, after about 10 years, I started doing some stuff with my own groups. [38:03] That's where the Beasley, Vinnie Colaiuta, Tavallone band came in, which was fun. [38:09] But then every once in a while, Wayne would call, and I would go. [38:14] And it would be Terri Lyne, me, and Mitch Foreman, and Wayne. [38:19] And later on, I did some stuff with him, and it was with Jim Beard, Terry [38:24] Lynn, David Gilmore on guitar, and Shinobu Ono, or different people. [38:34] And then, also in the original band with Terri Lyne and me and Mitch Foreman, sometimes Mino Cinelu played percussion. [38:45] In the early 90s to the end, towards the late 90s, he lost his wife in [38:54] that plane crash, and my wife and I lost a baby. We had a carriage and then a stillbirth. It was heavy. Right after that, he called. [39:03] It was crazy, and we talked a little bit. We had always hit it off. We really became very close. He became like a second father to me. [39:11] We were tight. [39:12] And he was incredible, and an incredible human being, and a lovely family-oriented person, and really somebody who was brilliant. [39:21] What a genius. [39:22] So at the end of the 90s, he was like, man, I want to put a band together, and I want you to play. [39:29] And we're also going to do some stuff with orchestra also. And he was like, you're interested in that? I said, man, are you kidding? Call me, and I will be there. [39:37] And then, yeah. And I had already moved to New York. I was already living in New York. [39:45] So I would fly back, and I started playing on that Alegría record, too. That's a heavy record. You got to check that out. [39:55] It's ridiculous. The writing. [39:58] And I had Alex Acuña play some drums, Terri Lyne. And this is how the quartet... [40:05] I was with him before then for a while. [40:08] But the beautiful thing was, during the course of that record, which took a couple years to make, I think, something happened, and they [40:19] wanted to get a new piano player, and they were auditioning. [40:21] There were some different piano players on that record. [40:24] And then Terri Lyne got Danilo involved, and Wayne Chosin. [40:30] And then, towards the end of the recording, Terri Lyne had to go out with Herbie. [40:36] But we had to finish the record, and then they called Brian. [40:40] And then that combination, which had already played on a track, had done some tracks together on Danilo's Motherland record. [40:48] It was like immediate synergy with that trio. [40:53] And that wound up being the core of the quartet. Yeah, man. Those records. [41:01] Oh, man. [41:02] Every concert I've ever seen of you all, and just... [41:05] Even when they did the documentary, after you had passed, and they let it come out, and the stuff they show, it was just like, that band, man, is very, very special in this. [41:15] It definitely has to go on that list of the bands throughout the culture of jazz, with the Miles Band, and all the famous, great, amazing units. [41:26] Oh, thank you, man. That is definitely one of them. [41:29] And it will be looked at such, as time progresses, man. [41:32] So all my listeners out there, if you haven't checked out any of those Wayne Shorter records, you have to just do yourself a favor and go listen to these records. [41:42] And you'll hear John on Upright, and in a way, it's just a different thing, man. [41:47] I mean, listen, a lot of people play both, and I love that. You know what I'm saying? [41:51] But for me as a drummer, I immediately can hear when they don't really play both, when they're playing it out of functionality, and [41:59] not out of really spending the time and getting that instrument really mastered. [42:04] It's usually, you know, electric bass, a lot of people can play well, but when you get on to Upright, just like a cat playing drums, and then when they get on to 18 with nothing in it, and a bebop hit, it's another instrument. [42:14] You can't play it the same way. You know what I'm saying? [42:17] So, you know, do yourself a favor, everyone, and listen to the Wayne Shorter records. [42:22] 42 minutes, 22 seconds So, John, what else is going on now, as far as what you're doing right now, and, you know, where you're putting out records now, and what you got coming out in the future? [42:31] Like, share a little bit of that with us. [42:33] Well, I have to first talk about the connection that Brian and I wound up having, which became profound. [42:43] Because we both have a love of the groove, and gospel music, pop music. [42:50] Brian's a singer-songwriter, and he made that record. He does so many things. [42:54] He can play, and when he plays the funk, it's kind of old school, like, you know, before the backbeat came from over here, you know, and it's cool. [43:04] So, sometimes, a lot of times, people are sleeping on the fact that, even in the Wayne Shorter quartet, which everybody views as a very abstract thing, a lot of times we [43:13] have these sneaky little grooves going on underneath, when Danilo and Wayne are really going wild. [43:20] There's some little thing going on that we've stumbled on, or something. So, he's a historian of records, too. [43:28] He really knows. [43:30] And, yeah, so that became, and we became very close. [43:34] We both really share faith together, and we're just, you know, he's, I can't say enough about him as a human being. [43:41] He's like a lighthouse, and his faith, and the way he walks, and the way he talks, and the way he loves people, and [43:49] the way he's an example of someone of integrity, is incredible. And I love him. [43:57] That sounds like that. I can hear that in his playing, man. [44:00] And also, you know, our other mutual friends like that, Mike and Lozano, same thing. [44:04] And I can hear that in his playing, too. [44:07] It's like, that's something that, you know, I have a gigantic tattoo on my right arm, right here, on the forearm, that says integrity. [44:14] So, when you shake my hand, you know what it is. [44:19] So, and I tell people all the time, integrity only exists when no one is watching, you know. [44:24] So, but like, man, that connection, though, you know, I follow that through some of the other things I've just seen you all play together on. [44:31] And, you know, the few times I've met Brian, you know, is exactly like you say. [44:35] And I just am such a fan of his playing, and I love following him doing some of these other things, when everybody thought it was just swinging, and then he kind of came over here with this other thing. [44:44] Hey, playing on Bob Dylan records. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? And he's got that thing. [44:48] He's got a little, when he plays pocket, he's got a little Gatson in there, and some selectivity, you know, a little of the older Gat. [44:55] You know, he's got a, it comes out, man, but his overall musicality is just one of the things that you don't see, you [45:03] know, it's like a once in a generation type of, you know, type of thing. [45:06] Because he has, it's not just about playing the drums with him, the way he, his space and the way he utilizes space and his ability to create that dynamic thing. [45:17] His dynamics are just one of the most incredible things you could see as a drummer, you know, here. [45:22] So yeah, man, Brian is just, you know, it's just phenomenal, man. [45:25] You know, people look at the wrong things sometimes, and they're, you know, it's not just about swing, man. [45:30] He, you know, as a drummer, sometimes in those situations, you know, we're, we're fueling things, and it's like, you have to know sometimes [45:38] where to push, and where to imply, and where to pull back, and where to support, and he's just always got that equation right, you know what I'm saying? [45:45] Like, always looking at the music as a whole, and you guys, you guys gel as a unit. [45:51] It was just, it's just like, it's one of the great bands, man. So that's, you know. [45:56] Yeah, I bring that up because he became a centerpiece in a lot of my bands. [46:02] 46 minutes, 2 seconds So I had bands, all kind of different bands. [46:05] I had trio with guitar with Adam Rogers or different people, Brian, both instruments. [46:10] I had the two guitar band with Adam Rogers and Steve Cardenas, the Brooklyn band. Yeah, he was there. Different stuff. [46:18] Now we have the trio with, you know, Spirit Fall. [46:20] That's a band with Chris Potter and Brian, and he's been part of so many of my groups. [46:27] Also, Nate Smith has played with me quite a bit in the guitar band. Yeah, he's been with me. [46:33] So, and he's somebody who can do a lot of different things. [46:38] People play him, see him play the pocket, and it's so beautiful. [46:41] But he can swing too, and he's a beautiful player. I love the way he plays too. Oh yeah, nice call. [46:49] Yeah, nice call. Something, and a beautiful spirit too. He's got a, he's a light too. [46:54] So those guys, and a lot of the stuff I've been doing, I've done a lot of different trio things. [47:00] You know, for a while, we were doing a bunch of trio stuff. [47:03] Obviously, we do the stuff with Danilo and Brian. [47:06] Danilo and Brian, but then sometimes we also do Danilo and Adam Cruz is another guy I use a lot. Adam, bad, bad. [47:14] Grew up on, played with Chick for a minute too, back in the day, but playing with Danilo forever, played with Tom Harrell, played with Don Sanchez. [47:24] You know, he's incredible. Check him out. [47:30] He's great, and we've done some stuff too, and I've played in some trios with Brian, and also with John Coward from the Fellowship, [47:38] and then some John Coward and Adam Cruz and myself, where I've also done some stuff. [47:44] I have a project now that we're going out next year with Dave Weckl and Joey Calderazo. [47:52] But right now, you know, I've been doing these Peperoncino Jazz Festival in New York gigs [48:01] every summer in June, because my buddy Sergio Gimigliano, who's a wonderful promoter from Calabria, he does like a big festival every year. [48:08] He does like 65 concerts in the summer in all these beautiful old ruins and different beautiful locations and stuff, and he brings a lot of people over from the States. [48:18] So he comes to New York now for the last five years, and we do something. [48:21] So this last time, we did a week at Smoke, the club on Uptown, and the rhythm section was Adam Cruz and Joey Calderazo. [48:31] First night, Steve Wilson, great saxophone player. You know about Steve? [48:35] Yeah, I haven't played with him, but yeah, oh yeah. He's great. [48:38] Then the second two nights were Chris Potter, and then the last two nights were Mike Rodriguez, the great trumpet player, who's amazing. [48:46] His brother, Robert Rodriguez, lives out in LA, but he's really good, man. [48:50] And the last night, Branford came and sat in at the end, and it was really something, you know. So I've been doing different things. [48:59] I'm playing, coming up, I'm doing a duo gig at the 92nd Street Y in July, I guess this month, yeah. [49:07] And that's Aaron Deal, incredible pianist. [49:11] I also did a week at the Vanguard with Renee Rosnes, with a young drummer who's [49:17] really great, from Oakland originally, Savannah Harris, who plays with Christian McBride. She's a monster. [49:24] That's the first time we've played together, and it felt like we've been playing forever. [49:28] And so it also had a little bit of that Bay Area thing that I love, because I lived there for a while. So I love that. She's great. [49:35] And then Potter played on that band too, and Renie's an amazing pianist. [49:40] So right now, I've been shedding my butt off, because I'm playing next week with Ben Wendel. Yeah, Ben's got some wild music too, beautiful. [49:49] And Gilad Hekselman on guitar, Taylor Eigsti, on the piano. [49:56] And the drummer is that guy, man, Nate Wood. Oh yeah, Nate Wood. Man, he can play. [50:06] Wow. So that's been fun. You know, they're still stretching the old man. [50:10] I had to get in there, and like Sid, I call it the curse of Chick Corea sometimes. [50:14] People, you know, they write stuff that's involved for the bass, and then they just go, yeah, you can play that, right? And I was like, I don't know. I really don't know. [50:22] Yeah, man, that's crazy. [50:24] But it keeps me honest and trying to keep growing and stretching in a lot of different directions. I've also got some stuff coming up. [50:32] I'm playing with Nicholas Payton and Brian, a gig in Delaware coming up, and that's going to be cool. Killer. [50:42] Yeah. [50:43] Nick and I, Nick played on one of my albums 10 years ago, and it was completely done by DMs, and we still never met in person. [50:53] Wow. Are you kidding? Never met in person. He killed it. [50:58] You know, we hooked up on a DM, and he was like, oh, cool, you know, and I sent him the stuff. He killed it. Record came out. [51:03] Next year will be the 10-year anniversary of that record, and we have yet to meet in person or play in person ever. Wow, he's special, man. [51:11] He could really play the trumpet, man. [51:13] Because, you know, I used to play with Freddie Hubbard in LA. I mean, that was one of my... Yeah, and did you know it was Ralph? [51:20] So, Ralph Penland, you and Ralph Penland played with Freddie, is what you're saying. [51:23] Yeah, we did, and we also made that record with Frank Strazzeri called Cat Dancin’, and man, he could swing, man. [51:33] He could really swing. He had a lot of Tony in him. Yeah, he did, yeah. I really enjoyed it. [51:38] We had a lot of fun playing with Freddie, and anytime I got to play with him, I loved it. [51:43] Yeah, for those of you that don't know, Ralph was my first teacher, but then he later in life ended up being my stepfather as well, so we had a crazy relationship, [51:51] but, you know, he passed on, but yeah, he taught me a lot, man, and was a real solid guy, a real, you know, chameleon guy, really could swing and really had [51:59] a pocket thing, played with Santana for a second, played with, you know, Frank Sinatra, just a, you know, well- rounded musician, so, you [52:09] know, I know those were killing when you guys played with Freddie. [52:12] I think, was David Garfield on some of those gigs with Freddie? Oh, no, no, no. That was either Billy Childs or John... [52:20] And now, it's funny you say Billy, because... [52:22] I played with David Garfield in other situations, like at the Big Potato and different places. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. [52:25] It's funny you say that about Billy, because I remember Billy telling me he was at one of the Elektric Band sessions, right? Wasn't that in the... [52:33] Rehearsals, too, sometimes. Dick loved him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [52:37] I remember that, because, you know, those records, man, like with Kicker and all that, I mean, dude, these, it's like my songbook of my life, man. [52:43] I still, I still play those records, you know, because I know, like, every note of those records, you know? [52:48] You know, that one, the one you just referenced, that's called Inside Out. Yeah, Inside Out, man. [52:55] Now, that tune had, that record had this song, which was one of the hardest things we ever had to play, called Tale of Daring. [53:02] And it was like, when we got the demos, when he sent us the demos, we were like, and the music, we were just like, how are we gonna, how are we gonna do this, man? [53:11] And then we rehearsed a little bit, and we wound up playing that, we used to play that live. Crazy, man. It was crazy, you know? [53:18] And it was really like, that record was kind of like Bartok meets the Elektric Band. Yeah. Music was really like, whoa. [53:27] Yeah. [53:28] And when we first heard the demos, we were like, oh no, how are we gonna survive? [53:32] Like, how do you play this music, you know, because it was pretty heavy. [53:36] Did you play with sequences, or was it always just live recreation? Live recreation, except the sequence was additional stuff. [53:46] Like, when we used to play Rumble, there was a sequence with all this kind of stuff. [53:50] So that, there were several things that were to a click. Yeah. Oh, wow. Back in the day. We were playing live every night. [53:57] Rumble, Rumble was, it was all to a click. That sequence, he had it in his ears. [54:06] And I didn't even have to listen to the click, because he was the click. Sure. You know, I was like, okay. Yeah. [54:13] I mean, the other thing I think too, man, that we don't think about is just how much the Elektric Band kind of just, it's just something that it did culturally. [54:23] You know, it was like, it was like fusion-y, you know, jazz as far as harmony and playing stuff. But it was so electric. [54:30] And then like a rock star type of mentality as far as for jazz musicians. It's like, that's the thing it did culturally. [54:37] It like, it stepped, you know, that band stepped out and it just became like Guns N' Roses. [54:43] Or, you know, it's like, you guys were like, it was a different thing than just, you know, a great fusion and you still had Scofield's thing. [54:50] And you still had, you know, yeah, Alan Holdsworth, you know, you had, but they were still great jazz things. [54:57] The Elektric Band became this, like within the music community, it just became such an acclaimed thing because all of you all were so, [55:06] so much virtuosos on your own, which we saw because everybody has solo careers. [55:10] And for us, you know, at my age that I was and like my musician friends, it was like just the benchmark of what we were aspiring to. [55:19] So sitting here with you, you know, of course we met a long time ago. [55:22] You know, I think what we met in Europe, you know, and I was playing with Herbie and you were playing probably with Wayne, I imagine, you know, and, and, and, you know, all that's wonderful, man. [55:29] But dude, I will never forget those days because in those years of my life listening to you, especially your solo record, John, like, [55:38] man, I was telling you on the phone, I could go, we'd go tomorrow, no rehearsal. [55:42] I play your whole first album without, it's second nature because I've listened to it thousands of times, man. [55:48] And I'm actually wondering why I don't see it on Apple right now. I was looking for it on Apple. [55:52] You know, it reverted back to me, but Universal, like they just discontinued it, man, but it did revert back to me. [56:01] So I got to figure out what I'm going to do. [56:03] Yeah, come on, listen, you can put it out tomorrow. I got my distribution with Empire. You can put it out on DistroKid. [56:09] We need that record, man, because that one is, that's a special one. [56:12] That ballad, that ballad, man, with, with Mike Brecker is to me, the modern version of Naima. [56:21] Like to me, it takes that place, like that, that is such an emotional song, the way it was being played. [56:27] Now let's also remember so many other things were happening. That was the early, you know, display from Peter. [56:36] That's when the whole dry ride thing was happening. Was it like that? Wasn't a thing before. [56:41] So that tone of a ride symbol, you know, and then you had the revert that, right. [56:47] It's just, man, you guys were just pushing and I'm just thankful. I'm thankful. I got to give you props. Thank you. [56:55] Thank you for this contribution, man, because I don't think I'd be here. [56:59] I don't think a lot of people would be here without the contribution of what you all were kicking up, man. [57:04] 57 minutes, 4 seconds So, you know, I really, really appreciate that, man. [57:07] And one day we're going to definitely get to play, bro, because we're going to do it soon. [57:10] But for me, it's hard to imagine that, you know, until people tell us stuff. [57:15] When we got that gig for me, it was like at that point, I've been waiting a long time. [57:20] I wanted to play with him because I knew it was going to stretch me on both axes. Sure. But I have no idea. [57:25] Even when we were in it, we were just so into the music and learning and having, you know, we were learning so much and he was, he was just playing insane. [57:33] He would play these intros. It would be like, what? You know, we were learning so much. [57:39] We really didn't quite understand the impact of it all. Yeah. [57:43] And then, uh, like my friend, Chris Laughlin, uh, always, he plays for his gospel class, the clip when we were on The Arsenio Hall Show. Yeah. [57:51] And we were funking out and playing Light Years or something like that. [57:54] But I, you know, I was so excited just to be, to have that gig. Yeah. [58:02] That, and to get to play with him and then to play also in the trio later. [58:07] Um, I had no idea about the impact, how, you know, how it was spreading out. [58:13] Kind of, we didn't know because we were on a road so much. [58:17] We were, uh, we were growing, you know, and me, I started making records. [58:22] I was writing and I was, you know, trying to, you know, cause I, I was always writing a lot of stuff even before that. [58:27] It's just, if it wasn't for Chick, those records would have never happened. Yeah. [58:30] He believed in that, man, you, you need to write, you need to document this stuff. [58:35] You need a band, you need the record deal. [58:37] 58 minutes, 37 seconds And if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have had one. Man. [58:40] Well, I speak to, you know, speak to what kind of guy he was. [58:44] I, thankfully, man, thankfully I was playing with Herbie at Umbria and I just happened to be with Herbie and the chef, this, this [58:51] acclaimed chef comes over and he's like, Hey, you know, I got a service for you guys on the side of the stage, just for you guys. And Herbie was like, come on. [58:59] So I go over there and here's just Chick. [59:02] So I sit there in Umbria watching someone play. [59:05] I don't even remember who's on stage eating this special meal with literally Chick on one side and Herbie on the other side. Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. [59:13] I got a, you know what I'm saying? [59:14] And I was just realized like, okay, whatever, anybody that did anything bad, thank you. [59:19] Cause whatever happened in my life to get me to this moment is like, I'm here. Right. [59:23] So, you know, he was just, just such an amazing person, man. [59:28] And, you know, like I said, there's only a few left, you know, from that generation, Herbie being one of them. [59:32] And it's like, you know, man, and Ron, you know, it's just not too many left from that, you know, that, that period, man. [59:38] So, um, you know, it's just amazing what you all were able to accomplish, man. [59:42] And then you did it again with Wayne's band and John, it just speaks to who you are. You know what I'm saying? [59:48] You, you know, it's just mind boggling the amount of music that you've already been a part of, you know, during your career as [59:56] a, as a sideman and as a leader and as a composer, so much music you've left us and given us, man. [1:00:02] It's so much inspiration and so many breadcrumbs, you know, um, to learn from. [1:00:07] 1 hour, 7 seconds And it's just, it's just gives me such an honor to have you here on the show today, man. Like, I mean that really sincerely, bro. [1:00:13] It's like, it's not just a, it's, this is a, this is much bigger than just a guy who plays bass. [1:00:18] You know, this is, um, you've been very instrumental in my career and, and, you know, how I approach bass players. [1:00:26] And then our dear friend, Mike Elizondo, I mean, we were both into that at the same time. So you know what I'm saying? [1:00:31] So it's like, you know, I remember when he got his first, you know, electric Yamaha, this red electric Yamaha. [1:00:38] And then, you know, there's that whole story that we can say real quick, um, about the Sadowsky, you know what I'm saying? [1:00:43] The famous Sadowsky that a lot of people, now, you know, this is one of the basss that Mike played on all lot of [1:00:50] the Dre hits he did, you know, and that bass came from John Patitucci, you know what I'm saying? [1:00:56] So I was getting ready to move to New York, I think. [1:01:00] And, uh, and I, uh, I think we, um, we just gave him a, we sold it pretty cheap because he's so great. Yeah. [1:01:10] And, um, you know, but I had no idea until many years later when we reconnected, he said, you know, I use that bass on all the hit records. [1:01:19] Yeah, no, yeah. [1:01:21] Like, I'm gonna just tell y'all right now, you know, um, I mean, just so all around that period or what's in the club, I'm sure. [1:01:29] Yeah. Problem. Yeah, of course. [1:01:31] That was like his, that was his, you know, that was his go-to bass and, you know, um, so many records were done on it and, you know, he still pulls it out. [1:01:38] I mean, I, you know, I go do sessions with him in Nashville, you know, and it'll come out, man. [1:01:43] And it's like, uh, Hey man, it's just a piece of history from one generation to a whole nother generation, you know, which is [1:01:50] 1 hour, 1 minute, 50 seconds unbelievable how that got kept, kept on, you know, um, living, you know, through music. [1:01:55] But John, you know, man, listen, bro, I I'm just, I'm at a loss and I'm usually never at a loss for words, bro. [1:02:03] Can I, can I say also that this, this, this, all this is by the grace of God. [1:02:10] I mean, I was just a kid growing up in East Flatbush in Brooklyn. I had no idea. I had all these dreams. I didn't even know what I was doing. [1:02:17] My brother, Tom played a huge thing in my life. [1:02:21] He's a, he's a guitarist, great guitar player and a pastor and kids. [1:02:26] He was always looking out for me, you know, and, um, I want to be like him always. [1:02:31] He's been my hero since I was a kid. [1:02:33] And so he started playing guitar and then I started trying to play the guitar, but I'm lefty and I play right. And the pick was impossible. I didn't last long. [1:02:41] The guy was trying to make us learn how to read right away. And I played by ear. So that didn't last. He saw me hate. I hated it. [1:02:48] And then he, he was the one who put the bass in my hand. We got a Sears Telstar bass. [1:02:53] It was hanging on somebody's wall down the street in East 39th street in Brooklyn. 10 bucks. It was a wall ornament. Wow. Harold Sears. [1:03:01] It was a short scale bass with flatwounds. [1:03:04] It buzzed on every fret when he put it in my hands. [1:03:07] I was like, wow, I can use my fingers. No pick. Wow. And I was in love. [1:03:12] And then I was hearing the first two tunes that made me love the bass. We're both Jamerson. [1:03:17] It was, I Was Made to Love Her Stevie wonder. [1:03:20] And For Once in My Life, Stevie wonder right in my father's car and hearing that song. [1:03:25] And when the harmonica solo would come on, I would cry. It was so beautiful. [1:03:28] I just didn't know how people could play music like that. And so I feel like Cinderella. I always say this to people. I do. [1:03:36] I didn't, I had no on paper. [1:03:38] There's no reason how that little kid with nobody, no connections with anybody in the world of music, nothing. That's God. [1:03:47] That's an act of God because everywhere I went people, I had mentors. [1:03:52] There was another guy named Chris Poehler in the Bay area who taught me all kinds of stuff still in my life. [1:03:58] He's getting up there now, but his name P-O-E-H-L-E-R. Great. Amazing guy. And he knew everything. He had played with a lot of cats. [1:04:06] Do you play with Wes Montgomery? They would, you know, area. [1:04:10] He was a San Francisco bass player and he got to play a teeny bit with Elvin. He played with our old friend, Vince. And he really, and he hooked me up. [1:04:18] He made me learn how to read music too. [1:04:19] I wouldn't have been a studio player if it wasn't for him. [1:04:22] People and they say, man, John can really read. [1:04:24] He just starts laughing because he remembers when I couldn't read. That seems impossible, man. I was an ear guy only. [1:04:34] And I used to do a lot, even though I learned how to read and do stuff. But the ear is important. [1:04:41] And anyway, so I feel like everything that happened to me was because of the Lord. That's right. I hear you, man. [1:04:48] Well, it seems like your steps were ordered. [1:04:50] If anybody knows where that comes from, I can't see a better example of that, man. Because all you've done is just give us... I didn't even know what I was doing. [1:04:59] Right. Going with my faith. [1:05:04] 1 hour, 5 minutes, 4 seconds He gives you the gift and then he gives you the drive to develop the gift. [1:05:08] And then he brings all these people into my life. [1:05:11] And then, you know, because of Chick, then I got to know Herbie and then Wayne. And those were transformative relationships as well. Yeah. [1:05:19] Transformative. [1:05:20] You know, the times I played with Herbie, that was like, you know, even though I'm older now and I understand, I feel like that 12-year-old kid, 13-year-old [1:05:28] kid listening to Herbie play with Miles and Ron. [1:05:31] And I got to meet Ron because of Chick. [1:05:34] And I got to meet Tony because of Chick. Yeah, man. And so... Crazy. Crazy. [1:05:42] Yeah, it's just like you look back and it's like, you know, the older, the younger you, it's like you could never even imagine, you know, what was going to happen. You know what I'm saying? [1:05:50] From that time to now. Because we're not in control of that. You know what I'm saying? We control certain aspects of it. [1:05:57] But generally, you know, yeah, because you can do something and it can happen one time. [1:06:01] What makes it so you keep making decisions to keep elongating and extending the career, you know, that gift of discernment, you know, that [1:06:09] has to be something that you have, then that some people say, you know, is... Some people call it a voice. Some people call it intuition. Some people call it God, right? [1:06:17] So it's like, at the end of the day, you know, what you've been able to contribute, man, has just been nothing short of amazing. [1:06:25] You've always been such a nice, affable, you know, approachable person. And, you know, John, it's just like... [1:06:32] It's just a gift to have you on my show, man. I really feel... I just... [1:06:38] This is emotional for me, bro, because I was a big fan of yours. I've been a big fan. [1:06:42] And you guys really did a thing with my musical career, you know what I'm saying? So I appreciate all your contributions, man. [1:06:52] And once again, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. John Patitucci on the TrevBeats Show. [1:06:59] You guys have been really well. [1:07:01] You and Mike and that whole crew that you grew up with. Yeah, man. And all these cats. You guys have really... [1:07:10] I mean, I'm sure there's many people that you've been influencing. More people than you know. I appreciate that, man. [1:07:16] I mean, listen, you know, my whole thing at this stage in my life is I want to lay what I call... we call breadcrumbs here on the channel. [1:07:24] You know, DJ Quik, one of my guests said, hey, man, crumbs equal cake, you know? [1:07:27] And it's like, I want people to be able to go back and look at all these interviews because you're going to see so many connections. [1:07:33] There's yet to be an interview where there weren't overlaps and connections one way or another, you know what I'm saying? [1:07:38] And I think that's important for people to understand, too, is that as much contribution and influence is still quite a small circle when [1:07:46] you look at the relative number of people on the Earth, you know what I'm saying? [1:07:50] And so, you know, and you have these centers like New York and L.A., which makes it even more concentrated. [1:07:56] So, you know, it's like my whole thing now is influencing. [1:08:00] And, you know, I didn't ask you the question. [1:08:01] I think I have to ask you since we're still here. I may even put it earlier. [1:08:06] So in this day and age, you know, I have to ask you coming from the period of, you know, of the 70s, 80s, [1:08:14] you know, analog, everybody was doing everything that they were, you know, hands on. [1:08:18] What is your take on where AI is today? [1:08:20] 1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 seconds How do you how do you see that in relation to music? I don't know. [1:08:26] There's there's, you know, I can tell you, man, I've heard some horrible sounding commercials. [1:08:37] Somebody writing would never put those things together like that. [1:08:40] But I don't know what's going to happen with it. [1:08:43] My biggest fear is that it will put people out of work. And, you know, I don't know. [1:08:51] And I don't believe that it's ever going to mess with people who are playing creative music and improvise music because it still won't [1:08:59] have a heart and a set of lungs and a soul. Yeah. [1:09:03] We'll have what you put into it or you teach it to do. [1:09:06] But it will not become an improviser on the level. [1:09:09] I mean, you know, we're talking about the heroes that influence like Sonny Rollins and Bird and Trane and, you know, that is not possible. [1:09:16] I don't care how good you get with machines. So that part of it. [1:09:23] But it will put people out of work that do certain kinds of industrial music. Yeah. And that's sad to me. [1:09:31] I don't know how you measure it all. [1:09:33] Like, you know, I know people are bent on progress and technology can sometimes be harnessed in such a way that it helps people. [1:09:43] But I'm ignorant of any ways that I can think of. [1:09:47] Aside from some people, it helps them put together to write things and do things. [1:09:55] I don't see it yet being a creative tool in music. I don't know. [1:10:04] What do you think about the non-music applications, you know, that we see, you know, just helping things scale? [1:10:10] And I guess the other side of that is that it will replace some jobs in those sectors, for sure. [1:10:15] But do you use it at all in any of your life's workflow at all? I haven't messed with it at all. Gotcha. Yeah. [1:10:25] I'm with you on the creative side as far as like, I don't believe it'll, you know, because what makes you, you know, an improviser is the moment. [1:10:34] So if it has to be built on something from the past, it's not in the moment. [1:10:38] You know, we can't have somebody, somebody, something that somebody else plays and then react off of it because it can't, you know, you can't do that. [1:10:45] So I don't think that's ever going to happen. [1:10:47] But, you know, I definitely use it in my, you know, some of my other workflows and helps me scale some of the things I do. [1:10:54] And I build apps and a whole bunch of other stuff. [1:10:57] There's a whole nother side on my development side. [1:10:59] But I don't, you know, um, and I've used it in music in certain ways for sure, but not, I'm never trying to, you [1:11:06] know, replace some artists or copy somebody, you know, that those are just terrible work, you know, work use cases for it. [1:11:13] And I think that that should always stay outlawed and not accepted. [1:11:17] You know, nobody should be able to just prompt something solely without any input and claim that as something that they did. [1:11:24] That's just to me, yeah. Music from someone else. Yeah, that's, that's, um, yeah, that's terrible. [1:11:32] Yeah. And it's different than sampling. [1:11:34] You know, some people say, oh, well, what about sampling? [1:11:36] It's still different because you can take a sample and, and just like when you play standard, you know, 50 people will interpret the [1:11:44] sample 50 different ways and chop it 50 different ways and then use it 50 different ways. So it's different. You know what I'm saying? It's a different thing. [1:11:52] 1 hour, 11 minutes, 52 seconds Like I DJ Jahi Sundance. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, man. [1:12:00] I was blown away by what he did. [1:12:02] You know, that's Gene Lake's brother, right? I know. [1:12:07] I mean, when I saw, um, you know, cause I, I love Pino and, um, I [1:12:16] know Pino a long time, you know, and him and Chris Sharkey, I would go see them at the, at the Blue Note. [1:12:22] They're playing with Glasper and them and DJ as Jahi Sundance. Yeah, Jahi Sundance. Oh yeah. [1:12:30] And I've seen him several times and it just blew me away. [1:12:34] I never heard anybody use it in a jazz context quite like that. It's the instrument. He uses like an instrument. I don't know. [1:12:42] There may be somebody else, but I'd never heard that. Yeah. [1:12:45] Like it was so intuitive and so in, in the music. Yeah. Really special. [1:12:52] And, um, you know, I, I like, I like the idea, like, you know, the creative way, like I was a fan of like A Tribe Called Quest or, you know, some of [1:13:01] the stuff I'm not an expert on hip hop, but I've learned a bit about it over the years. [1:13:05] And when people are creative like that and use it in interesting ways, like I remember the first time I heard that Yancey record [1:13:14] in the middle of it was like, you know, and then obviously the stuff that you guys were part of. Yeah. [1:13:21] I mean, it's, it can come out in different ways. [1:13:24] And I think it's still a lot of ways to be creative. [1:13:26] And back in, you know, in the, in the late nineties, early two thousands, well, really the late nineties, I was for a while, I was kind of like the Coltrane family producer. [1:13:34] Cause I literally live around the corner from Michelle and, and Oran used to live next door. And so, and Alice, Alice did too. [1:13:41] 1 hour, 13 minutes, 41 seconds So, and I played with Alice, you know, a little bit before she passed, but, um, I used to go produce stuff and I will never remember, forget a little kid running [1:13:49] around, you know, literally like, you know, a little baby in diapers, her cousin's son, and, um, you know, when he was about 13 [1:13:58] or 14, I was at Oran's house and I remember he had done an intern at this label called Stones Throw, maybe he was a little older than that, but I had [1:14:05] never heard any of his music, so he had his laptop and he played me some beats he was working on. [1:14:10] And immediately I was like, oh, he got the train thing and it came out like this. [1:14:17] And that person is who we know now as Flying Lotus. [1:14:20] And you know, so that's, that's part of the Coltrane lineage and bloodline. Yeah. He's like, he has the record label. [1:14:30] That's the record label, but he, isn't he, doesn't he know, isn't he a Thundercat? Yeah. That whole, that whole thing. Yeah, that's him. [1:14:37] So he's part of the Coltrane lineage and I, you know, saw him kind of grow up. [1:14:41] But as soon as I heard that, what he played out of all the people that make beats and sample, you can tell, yeah, it's a different thing. [1:14:50] It's just different. You know what I'm saying? [1:14:51] And it's like, you know, then he just ended up being this huge mogul and killing it, but you know, that's speaking to what we were speaking about, about Jahi. [1:14:59] I mean, even though it's samples, it can still be creative in a whole different way, you know, with the AI thing. [1:15:05] I think people sometimes cheap, cheap it out and they kind of, they're, they didn't, because in order for that to happen, you still have to have some musical sensibility. [1:15:13] And so, you know, these people that don't do music, it's like, ah, you know, I've heard recently of, you know, people that work in the ad agencies that are like the [1:15:22] suits, and then they put out a directive to try to get a spot done. [1:15:26] And then they ended up just doing it with, with, you know, AI. [1:15:28] 1 hour, 15 minutes, 28 seconds It's like, dude, it's not, you know, I've heard some of those on TV when I was watching like CNN, and all of a sudden this commercial comes on. [1:15:37] I was like, that's why. Yeah. That's for sure. Really sad. For sure. And, uh, it's happening with the actors. [1:15:44] You know, there's a show called black mirror on Netflix and there's an episode episode they did during that last writers’ strike we had a few years ago with Salma Hayek, and [1:15:52] it was kind of all about AI taking over the name and likeness of the actors. [1:15:56] And that's what that whole thing was about way before the conversation we're in now. [1:16:00] And I thought that was very, you know, forward thinking of them to put that out, you know, probably close to three to four years ago now. [1:16:07] Um, you know, but I just want to get your take on that, man, because I asked all my guests and, you know, I just like to see how everybody's, you know, checking that out. [1:16:16] But ladies and gentlemen, again, John Patitucci has come to the TrevBeats Show. I'm just, I'm over the moon, man. [1:16:25] And, you know, thank you again, man, for all you've done, for all you continue to do, you know, for showing up, man, and, [1:16:32] and, and, you know, even for us reconnecting, like, you know, I appreciate you checking out what we've been doing, man. [1:16:38] And, you know, we'll, we'll have to play soon, bro, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, we must. Yep. Absolutely. John Patitucci, ladies and gentlemen. [1:16:46] Okay. [1:16:47] So if you got value from this episode, do me a favor, hit subscribe, drop a like, and share this with somebody who needs to hear it. New episodes drop every week. [1:16:54] Trevor Lawrence Jr. This is TrevBeats Show and we out. We out. It's the TrevBeats Show and we out. [1:17:09] It's the Trev Beats. It's the TrevBeats Show and we out.