Greg Hutchinson Interview on
The TrevBeats Show 

Legendary drummer Gregory Hutchinson joins Trevor Lawrence Jr. for a candid and deeply personal conversation about musicality, originality, discipline, mentorship, and what it truly means to serve the music. Gregory reflects on growing up in Brooklyn, discovering the drums through his Caribbean family, and becoming part of the influential generation of young jazz musicians who emerged alongside artists including Roy Hargrove and Joshua Redman. He shares what he learned from masters such as Betty Carter, Ray Brown, Milt Jackson, Johnny Griffin, Stanley Turrentine, and Justin DiCioccio—and explains how an early rejection became the fuel behind his lifelong work ethic. The conversation explores Gregory’s approach to developing an individual sound, the growing emphasis on technique over musical identity, and why musicians must study the tradition without becoming copies of the people who came before them. He also discusses his love of hip-hop and reggae, his work with Common, the challenges of being placed into an industry-defined box, and his project honoring Miles Davis through the perspectives of the legendary drummers who helped shape Miles’ music. Gregory also reveals that an unauthorized, apparently AI-generated album was released under his name on the same day as his legitimate album. That experience leads to a nuanced conversation about artificial intelligence, creative ownership, technology, and the importance of using new tools responsibly. Most importantly, Gregory explains the legacy he hopes to leave behind: not simply that he was a great drummer, but that he elevated the musicians around him, served the music, brought joy to audiences, and helped other people become their best selves.

COLD OPEN GREGORY HUTCHINSON: I’m in service of making the people around me sound good. Look, if we all sound good, we all show out. When people come to me and say, “Man, you sound good,” I say, “No, no—you’re missing the point.” Either I didn’t translate something correctly from the stage, or you weren’t listening in the right way. So let me rephrase the question: Did we sound good? That’s the legacy I want to have. CHANNEL INTRODUCTION TREVOR LAWRENCE JR.: Real quick—if you’re new here, welcome to The TrevBeats Show. Hit subscribe so we can keep building together. To my regulars who show up every time, I see you, and your viewership means everything. If you ever want to help fuel this channel so we can do even bigger things, you can grab some fresh gear from the merch store below or join the Backstage membership next to the subscribe button. Now, back to the show. INTRODUCING GREGORY HUTCHINSON TREVOR: Welcome back to The TrevBeats Show. Today, we’re sitting down with one of the most respected drummers on the planet. He has toured and recorded with legends including Herbie Hancock, Roy Hargrove, Joshua Redman, Betty Carter, Christian McBride, and countless others. He has become one of the standards for what it means to combine technical mastery, musicality, swing, soul, and pocket. But what makes my guest, Gregory Hutchinson, special isn’t just the drumming. It’s his commitment to the music, his dedication to the culture, and the wisdom he has gained over decades at the highest level. If you’re a drummer, musician, producer, creative, or anyone trying to build a meaningful career while staying true to yourself, I think this conversation is going to be for you. Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the legendary Mr. Gregory Hutchinson. GREGORY: My God, my God, my God! Hey, man. It’s so nice to see you, brother. What’s up, bro? That intro—look, man, I need to take you everywhere I go, because that is an intro! TREVOR: Thank you very much, brother. I appreciate the praise. GREGORY: I’ll say the same thing back to you. We’ve been lucky and fortunate. That wisdom comes with the years we’ve been here. I’m watching you do your thing, and like I told you before, it’s very impressive. It also inspires me. It shows me the next level where I need to step my game up. So thank you. We all thank you, brother. TREVOR: I appreciate it, man. For those who didn’t know, you spent some time in L.A. We were rocking back when Gordon and I were roommates. That was the mid-’90s, bro. We’re going back more than three decades now. Can you believe that? GREGORY: That’s crazy, man. We didn’t know. I mean, we knew—but when we look at it now… I just turned 56. I was telling a friend that I’m embracing this—I don’t know—middle age or whatever it is. I’m embracing it and understanding that I am 56. I’ve earned the right to enjoy these years because, growing up in Brooklyn, New York, we weren’t supposed to live past 25 because of everything that was going on. I feel that I was able to do it through the grace of God and through my mom, who was my biggest fan and always inspired me. That’s why moving to L.A. was so much fun. You and Gordon really embraced me and took me around. I was from New York, and on my first day in L.A., I remember walking around wearing all the wrong colors. TREVOR: Hey, man—you didn’t know! GREGORY: I didn’t know! TREVOR: Of course. It’s a cultural thing. For those who don’t know, let’s talk about where you’re joining us from right now. You currently live where? GREGORY: Italy. I’m in Rome, and I’ve been here for about 15 years. My mom passed away, and I decided I needed a break from New York. I’m from Brooklyn. I grew up around the corner from Biggie and Stetsasonic, so I grew up in all of that. But I needed a break. New York can be a lot, and sometimes you need to step away. I’m glad I did. TREVOR: New surroundings can sometimes create new energy. DISCOVERING THE DRUMS TREVOR: You grew up around music at a high level. When did you realize it wasn’t only going to be something around you, but something you were going to do? When did that bug hit you? GREGORY: It’s going to sound crazy, but I was three years old. My dad played drums, and my family is from the Caribbean. I didn’t come up first on jazz music. I came up on reggae. My dad would put me on his lap while he was smoking something green, and he would play one-drops. The whole time, I would be bouncing up and down. From that moment, I said, “You know what? I love this.” When he left the room, I would start banging on things. Then I started trying to take the drums apart to understand how they worked. That led to a love and passion for the drums. That started when I was three. When I got into junior high school, I realized, “This is something I want to pursue.” My mom never told me, “You should do something else.” She said, “If you want to play music, go for it. There’s nothing you can’t do if you put your mind to it.” But she also said, “Your grades have to be right.” If your grades aren’t right, the music isn’t going to be right, because your grades demonstrate your consistency and discipline. If you aren’t consistent and disciplined, you can’t be successful. That started back then, and the same principle applied to music. The love came from that. THE YOUNG LIONS ERA TREVOR: Because of our age, we were still able to play with many of the legends while they were alive. You played with everybody from Betty Carter onward, particularly during the period in the ’90s that we now refer to as the Young Lions period. You were one of the early people in that world. That was when you were playing with Joshua Redman and Roy Hargrove. The sound and the music were changing. A new generation of jazz musicians was emerging, and you were part of that architecture with Joshua and Roy. What did that responsibility feel like? You guys were the guys. Those were the bands everybody in jazz was talking about. GREGORY: You know what? I feel like Jordan! No, but seriously, we have to give credit to what came before us. The door opened with Branford and Wynton Marsalis. Then, when Roy came around, it was something completely different. I met Roy at one of those jazz conventions. I’m from New York and Roy was from Texas. He tried to skip me in line. I said, “Yo, yo, yo—no, brother. You’ve got to go to the back.” He said, “Oh, man, but I’m…” I said, “I don’t care who you are.” He looked at me and said, “Well, who are you?” I said, “Greg Hutchinson.” He said, “Greg Hutchinson? Oh, man!” It shows you how things worked. I was in school in New York. Roy wasn’t in New York yet; he was at Berklee. We connected, and he said, “Man, I want you to play in my band.” I said, “Oh, yeah—whatever. Talk, talk.” Then we started seeing each other more often, and eventually I joined the band. There were a lot of great cats coming up during that time. Nicholas Payton had a band. Mark Whitfield had a band. A lot of people had bands. But Roy was different. Roy lived for the music. Day and night, it was nothing but music. A lot of people don’t fully understand that when we talk about Roy. Roy was so deep and such a genius. The relationship between trumpet and drums was especially evident between me and Roy. Roy was my guy. I would go anywhere with him. I went places we probably shouldn’t have gone just to make sure he was good. I wasn’t going to leave him out there. Musically, he was always thinking ahead. Even with fashion, he was the first cat I saw wearing a suit with sneakers. He was willing to be different. Roy opened a door, and then people such as Joshua Redman came along. The responsibility for all of us was to live up to what the masters had created while also putting our own generational spin on it, as every generation must do. We all begin by learning from and copying the masters. I tell my students that copying is part of learning. But at some point, you have to become yourself. When you leave this earth, you don’t want your legacy to be, “He sounded like so-and-so.” You want the legacy to be your own. That was the responsibility: How do we play this music, keep it authentic, and still move it forward? We were lucky, man. That Young Lions period was crazy. TREVOR: It was a weird and incredible period. So many people emerged from that time. I recently watched the Roy Hargrove documentary. I saw a side of him I had never seen—how he perceived things and moved through the world. It was incredible. Before we became close friends, I was one of the fans coming to see all of you at Catalina. GREGORY: I remember that! TREVOR: You all would come to L.A., and it would go crazy at the original Catalina Bar & Grill on Cahuenga. GREGORY: The original Catalina! We were having a ball, man. TREVOR: Those were incredible days for jazz in Los Angeles. Young Chris would pull up with Kenny. Tony would show up. That club was the place at that time. For those who don’t know, the original Catalina Bar & Grill was one of the most historic jazz venues in Los Angeles. Everybody came through there—from Freddie Hubbard to Kenny Garrett and so many others. Seeing you play with Roy and all of those people was incredibly inspiring. TRADITION, ORIGINALITY, AND DEVELOPING A SOUND TREVOR: Your approach to the drums taught me another lesson. You have a very traditional foundation you can access at any moment. You literally have a traditional vocabulary that you know verbatim. The modern developments are amazing, but you are also a preservationist. You never forget the foundation of where everything came from. At the same time, you stretch it and keep it modern. How did you develop that mindset, especially in a time when each generation seems to place more emphasis on chops and less on music? GREGORY: I was fortunate to study with Marvin “Smitty” Smith and Kenny Washington. Being in New York, I could also hang out with Jeff “Tain” Watts and Lewis Nash. I was seeing Bill Stewart, who is a great drummer and a friend of mine. As the music was changing, I kept asking, “How can we take this traditional vocabulary and stretch it?” When I started playing with Joshua, we began playing all of this odd-meter music. I lived next door to Smitty, so I was always hearing him practice Steve Coleman’s music. What he didn’t know was that while he was playing groupings of five, seven, nine, 13, or whatever else, I was in my room practicing rudiments. His drums were right against my wall. I would practice rudiments against the different time signatures he was playing. Then I realized, “In order to make this work, I need to change the sticking.” That was the trick. I would think, “Philly Joe might play something like this, but what happens if I change the sticking? Instead of doing it this way, what happens if I do something different?” That put me into a different mindset. I studied the Wilcoxon books and all of those traditional materials, but I also thought, “What if I were broke and didn’t have a book? How would I do this?” We were poor, so that was a real question. I decided to take groups of rudiments, combine them, and move the accents around. Moving the accents would force me to create my own vocabulary. That’s what I did, and I still teach that way. I teach from many books, but I also tell people, “Let’s break this down. Take three or four rudiments—a paradiddle, a five-stroke roll, and a flam tap—and move the accents.” Play each rudiment once instead of repeating it in its standard form. Start the five-stroke roll in one place, start the paradiddle somewhere else, and move the accents within each rudiment. You and I could work with exactly the same material and still create completely different things because you’re going to think one way and I’m going to think another way. That mindset kept me asking how to make the tradition relevant. WHY SPEED ISN’T ENOUGH GREGORY: The problem today—and I’ve spoken about this a lot—is that it really doesn’t matter how fast you play. I don’t know why so many guys have gotten this idea into their heads. It’s kind of sad. I tell cats, “Chops are cool, but everybody sounds the same.” I can go on record and say that because I have the résumé to say it. Everybody sounds the same because everybody is trying to play the same combinations: left, right, right, left, right, kick, kick, kick, left, right. Come on, man. If Elvin Jones played pop music today, it would be off the hook. He would be phrasing many of the things people are trying to do, but he would do it with the mind and identity of Elvin. Think about that. TREVOR: You don’t hear a lot of that now. I think the prevailing consciousness used to be that everyone should try to be original and develop a sound. Then the music industry began signing sound-alikes—people who sounded exactly like whatever was already successful. That mentality trickled down. Everybody began thinking, “I guess I’m supposed to sound like everybody else,” instead of trying to be original. Now we see that in every genre, not only jazz. GREGORY: Everywhere. Even in swinging. I hear the exact same phrasing over and over. Everybody has the same sound. Everybody is dampening the snare drum with a handkerchief. It’s becoming another version of the same thing. But there are still people pushing through. Marcus is doing it. Kyle Poole is killing right now. TREVOR: Kyle Poole is my man. There are a handful of cats maintaining the integrity. And listen—it’s art. People can do whatever they want. We’re not attacking anybody. The mindset is simply different. It used to be, “I’m not going to do that because I already saw somebody else do it.” That was a form of respect. GREGORY: Change it around. TREVOR: Exactly. You can use the idea, but bring it differently. Chris always wants to be different. He doesn’t want to do the status quo. He wants to make an artistic statement that is singular to what he does at every level—visually, sonically, and stylistically. That used to be everybody’s goal. Then things shifted toward this more homogeneous approach. One thing that excites me, though, is that I’m seeing a lot of younger people pick up the sticks and learn to swing. They’re learning how to properly play an 18-inch bass drum with a 12-inch and 14-inch tom. There was a period when we didn’t see that. When you listen to younger musicians, what excites you most, and what concerns you most? THE NEXT GENERATION GREGORY: The exciting part is the fact that the lineage is going to continue. You’re fortunate, because you’re one of those people who does everything. You got to see Tony Williams, Art Blakey, and Elvin Jones. No matter what style of music you play, you have a historical foundation—not only from those guys, but from James Gadson and so many others you were able to see. With the young musicians coming into the music, especially jazz, I’m excited because there are a handful of them who get it. We need to encourage them to educate their peers and form communities. We used to get together with our friends and play drums all the time. That’s how we learned from one another. The thing that concerns me is exactly what you said: Get a sound out of the instrument. If we’re playing swinging music and you have to dampen the snare drum and bass drum completely, I’m thinking, “Damn, man.” Anyone will tell you that my drums are wide open. There’s no dampening anywhere. I do the controlling myself. I understand that if we’re playing a backbeat, some dampening may be appropriate. That’s cool. But in this music, I want to hear the tone. I want to hear specific overtones. I don’t want all of that to disappear. Each generation has to figure out its own language. As much as I talk about the “flurries,” as I call them, I understand that the flurries are a generational thing. I’m just saying: Figure out your flurries. Make the F capital. Make the L capital. Make the U really small. Make the R big. Move it around! Each generation’s technique has gotten better, and I understand that. TREVOR: I’ll give social media some credit for that. A lot of technical codes have been cracked more easily because you can go online, look at something, and skip some of the trial and error we had to experience. GREGORY: But don’t you think they’re missing the fun of that trial and error? That was the fun part. We didn’t have immediate access to everything. TREVOR: Even the proving grounds are disappearing. New York will probably always have clubs and a scene, but L.A. doesn’t have as many places to play as it once did. How do young players develop poise and pay their dues when there aren’t as many places to perform? A lot of them are playing alone at home on the internet. Things are changing. Shout out to Blue Note Los Angeles. I played there with Keyon Harrold the other night, and it’s a great club. We also have Sam First and a few other places holding things down, along with the World Stage forever. But it is generational. We’re witnessing another trend. When we were coming up, the previous generation was saying, “They’re listening to hip-hop. They’re not playing jazz.” GREGORY: Exactly. TREVOR: It’s evolution. THE REALITY OF A CAREER IN JAZZ TREVOR: Since you are one of the ambassadors of jazz, what are some things about jazz, the jazz community, and the industry that people on the outside may not understand? It looks a certain way from the outside, but what is it really like? What has it been like making a living as a jazz musician? GREGORY: I’ve been extremely fortunate because I came up during a time when the masters were still around and I could do apprenticeships. I had opportunities to play with Milt Jackson, Johnny Griffin, Stanley Turrentine, Marlena Shaw—basically everybody. I grew up in New York, and I sometimes wonder whether my career would have been different if I had grown up in L.A., because, as you said, there weren’t as many clubs. Where you are matters, but I also believe you can place yourself in the right spaces. You did incredibly well in L.A. You didn’t have Art Blakey nearby, but you had Billy Higgins right there. Playing with those great musicians helped me understand what hard work was and how the music was supposed to be approached. I decided those were the gigs I wanted and those were the people I wanted to play with. At the same time, I understood that I had to make a living on the local scene, so I tried to balance the two. Eventually, I decided I wasn’t going to play certain local clubs anymore because if you become locked into that circuit in New York, people can begin treating you only as a local musician. New York is one of the few places where you can be considered local, travel internationally, and still play those clubs. But I wanted to travel. I wanted to take my knowledge around the world. I was fortunate to move continuously from band to band. I never really had a period when I was out of work. I went from Red Rodney to Betty Carter, then Roy Hargrove, Joshua Redman, Ray Brown, Dianne Reeves, Harry Connick Jr., Common, and others. The only real period when I stopped working was during COVID. TREVOR: That’s incredible. GREGORY: I had been going that entire time, brother. TREVOR: That speaks to your musicianship, your level, your swing, and your unmistakable sound. GREGORY’S CURRENT DRUMS AND CYMBALS TREVOR: What are you playing these days? What are we hearing in terms of drums and cymbals? GREGORY: First, I want to give a shout out to Paiste because I was there for a long time. I think I helped bring a couple of cats over and helped rejuvenate the sound through the Masters line. I was part of that. Eventually, I connected with my guy at Funch Cymbals because I wanted to go somewhere that would allow me to create my own line. He has done that. We have something cooking, and it’s really great. He’s a super-nice cat and also a drummer from Denmark. Because he’s a drummer, if I can hear something, he can create it. I called him the other day and said, “Man, I need that Out to Lunch! sound. I need Tony’s cymbal sound.” He said, “I’ve got you,” and sent me exactly that sound. I’m extremely particular about cymbals, so he has been great. With drums, I went back to Pearl. I returned to where things first started for me. I was with Yamaha for about 20 years, through the grace of Steve Ellison. Rest in peace. I know you remember Steve. Eventually, I went back to Pearl. During COVID, Dennis Chambers told me, “Man, you should come back.” I had floated around. I went to Gretsch, and Gretsch was great. Then I went to Mapex because Joe Testa convinced me to check out a new high-end line they were developing. The problem was that you couldn’t find those drums anywhere. Shout out to Mapex. I know you guys tried. Then I returned to Pearl, and everything has been great. I have no complaints. The drums are great. TREVOR: Pearl flipped a switch. People have been leaving all of these other companies and going back to Pearl. It’s a huge movement. GREGORY: I’m watching it. It’s crazy. TREVOR: Whatever you play is going to sound killing. GREGORY: I’ve also got these old Sonor Lites up here. I don’t take them on the road. I’m a drummer, man. I’m a freak! Pearl, I’m with you—but these are old. TREVOR: That’s collecting. It’s different. You’re allowed to own drums from any company. You simply don’t represent or promote the other companies publicly. It would be different if you were sitting in an interview with another company’s drums displayed behind you. GREGORY: Exactly. SUCCESS AND THE UNDERDOG MENTALITY TREVOR: You recently turned 56. You’ve traveled the world and had a very successful career. Has your definition of success changed from when you were in your twenties to where you are now? GREGORY: Aspirationally, I would say no. I’m a weird person. I always feel like the underdog. I always feel like I have to keep proving myself. If I’m not teaching online, I’m in this room practicing and trying to get better. “Success” is a strange word to me. I don’t like to think about it too much because once you start thinking of yourself as successful, you may relax. I always feel that I have to keep proving myself and maintain my place in the top tier. I have a theory: When my hands no longer want to work, I’ll do something else. I’m not going to continue playing when I can no longer play at the level I expect. That will be the end of that part of my career in its current form, but I’ll still find ways to do what I love. Success is when you can look back over the course of your life and feel happy about what you’ve done. For me, success also means influencing other people to become the best they can be. I don’t need you to be the best drummer. I need you to be the best person. We need good people. If you’re a good person, I believe that translates into becoming a great drummer. TREVOR: I feel that. HONORING MILES DAVIS THROUGH THE DRUMMERS TREVOR: We’re in the centennial period for Miles Davis. It would have been his hundredth birthday. You created an album with a connection to Miles. Tell us about the project. GREGORY: The idea is the pulse of Miles Davis through the eyes of the drummers. I wanted to look back at all of the great drummers who played with Miles—Kenny Clarke, Philly Joe Jones, Jack DeJohnette, Ndugu Chancler, Billy Hart, Al Foster, Tony Williams, and everybody else. How was Miles’ music shaped through their perspectives? Creating a record like that is difficult because the natural tendency is to try to recreate something that cannot be recreated. My philosophy was to avoid that. We rehearsed for one day. When we entered the studio the next day, I told everybody, “Everything we did yesterday—we’re not doing that.” I said, “Here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to call a tune, we’ll slate it, and whatever happens, happens.” We did one take of everything. That was it. I hired the musicians for four days, and we finished in two. I still had to pay them for all four days. TREVOR: Man, I would have made a whole new album during the other two days! GREGORY: I was thinking about it! TREVOR: That’s old-school. Roy would have said, “All right, I’ve got some more tunes.” We could have made a hip-hop album during the other two days! But that’s incredible. The timing is no coincidence. Miles’ centennial is such a monumental moment. I’m sitting here looking at two of his lithographs that Vince gave me. What a lineage—especially for drummers. Miles’ bands were proving grounds for so many great drummers. People sometimes don’t understand the depth of that or the mentality Miles encouraged: Play your mistakes. Continue moving forward. Miles brought so much to the table, including fashion. He was working with hip-hop at the end of his life. What an incredible career. I recently saw a clip from one of the early Bitches Brew performances. Jack DeJohnette was young, and he looked just like James Gadson. I initially thought it was Gadson. He was playing with the high cymbal and everything. I commented, “Oh, young Gadson!” Then I realized, “That was Jack!” GREGORY: There are records where young Jack sounds as though he is coming directly out of Elvin Jones. Then it eventually becomes Jack’s own sound. We were lucky. We had opportunities to sit with and learn from those guys. Jack would come out and hang. When someone you admire asks, “Greg, how are you doing?” you’re looking at Jack thinking, “I’m sorry—what?” A lot of people also don’t know that Jack is a brilliant piano player. TREVOR: His piano records are incredible. That goes back to what we were discussing before the interview: becoming a complete musician and covering every facet of the music. There should be nothing you cannot do. GREGORY’S HIP-HOP HISTORY TREVOR: A lot of people don’t know your hip-hop side. You made another project that leaned more into that side a few years ago. Tell us about your time with Common and some of the non-jazz music you’ve done. GREGORY: I have to give a shout out to my brother from another mother, Kareem Riggins. Kareem always keeps me in the loop. If you don’t have Kareem’s new album, go get it. He is claiming his space. Through Kareem, I had opportunities to enter more deeply into that side of the music. But my connection to hip-hop started before that. I grew up in New York. I used to rock with Stetsasonic back in the day. Biggie lived around the corner. I came from the period when all of these people were in high school and beginning to emerge. Whodini went to a school down the street. You had Jay-Z and Busta Rhymes. That was the generation. I went to school with Special Ed. Hip-hop was part of how I grew up. I bought my first MPC around high school and drove my mother crazy. She kept saying, “What is that? What are you doing?” I’ve remained a fanatic. I was thinking about buying the new MPC recently, and my lady said, “You had better not do it.” I said, “No, it’s cool.” I was actually supposed to go on the road with Kanye during the period of his first albums. My ex used to book Joe’s Pub in New York, and through that work she had a connection to Kanye. At the time, my youngest daughter was being born. People told me, “You should really be home for that.” With Common, we had a killing band. Omar was on keys. We were playing the Like Water for Chocolate material and all of that music. A lot of people didn’t know I was doing those gigs. For me, it was some of the most fun I’ve ever had—just playing pocket. I always tell people that there is nothing like hitting the bass drum in front of 10,000 people. Jazz gives you one kind of feeling. But when you hit that bass drum, look into the audience, and see 10,000 people react together—that is a completely different feeling. To me, it’s one of the most addictive things in the world. I loved it. I was using triggers and all kinds of technology. People don’t know how deeply I’m into sampling and production. I’m sitting here looking at equipment I still need to work on. We can’t ignore that side of the music because it’s part of how I grew up. I don’t call myself a jazz purist. I was lucky to grow up around jazz in New York, but I was also hanging out with other cats, listening to other music, and being influenced by everything around me. People also don’t know that, if I could go back, reggae might be the thing I do best. It’s natural because it’s in my family. I have a three-album deal with Warner, and I have one album left. I’m not sure what I want to do with it, but I’ve been thinking about taking it back to my roots. I know Warner probably doesn’t want to hear that! TREVOR: That would be hard, though. Taking it back to the roots would be dope. BEING PLACED IN AN INDUSTRY BOX GREGORY: It connects to something you asked earlier: The industry wants to place you into a box. I made my first record, The Bang, and it was banging. Whenever I tried to book gigs, promoters would say, “We thought you were going to make a jazz record. We don’t know what to do with this.” I realized they were trying to put me into a box. Eventually, I said, “I’m not even going to tour the record because I can’t deal with people telling me what I should be doing.” Maybe that was my fault. Maybe I needed to understand certain parts of the business better. But I have to speak my mind. Sometimes I may be right, and sometimes I may be wrong, Trev, but I have to stand up for what I believe. That’s how I move, and sometimes people don’t want to hear it. TREVOR: It’s hard, bro. That’s one of the hardest things to do. Even with my move into development, apps, and creating technology, some people still scratch their heads. I didn’t stop making music. I didn’t change any of that. This is simply another thing I’m doing right now. There’s nothing wrong with that. We get placed into categories, and it’s difficult. I’m a jazz drummer first, but I’m a jazz drummer from L.A. I didn’t go to New York and build my career in that system. Because of that, people often identify me first with hip-hop or session work. GREGORY: I’ve heard your swing. Don’t play with me! I’m not going to let you get away with calling yourself only an “L.A. jazz drummer.” Everything we’ve been discussing that pertains to me, I have heard and seen this gentleman do. A lot of you don’t know that side of him because you may not get to see it. But when we talk about phrasing and comping, he has it. He is about that. If you are a fan of Trevor’s, follow him and do the research. Don’t think it started today or yesterday. It started a long time ago. I know you won’t necessarily say it yourself, but I’m here to tell the people. That’s what I remember, that’s what I know, and that’s what is amazing. You told me you learned to do what you’re doing with this show by yourself, right? TREVOR: I had to, bro. And I fought it. I knew I might have an affinity for speaking to people, but the technical aspects, editing, and everything else—I had to learn all of it. Some people prefer to hire others to do everything, and there’s nothing wrong with delegating. But with certain things—cooking, technology, and recording—I like to do it myself. I don’t work on cars. I go to the mechanic for that. But cooking, technology, recording, and similar things—I wanted to learn those myself. I don’t even call it a pivot. It’s an evolution and another extension of what I do. GREGORY: It’s great, though. TREVOR: Thank you. This show is about information. People like you—and all of my guests—have contributed important things to the culture. I want people to hear directly from you about what you did, what you experienced, and what you were part of, from your own recollection. I don’t want someone reading about it later and then trying to teach it to another person without having lived it. JUSTIN DICIOCCIO, REJECTION, AND WORK ETHIC TREVOR: Speaking of foundations, one of your early mentors—not necessarily only on the drum side—was the great Justin DiCioccio. Talk about that relationship. A lot of people don’t know his impact. GREGORY: Let’s begin by saying that this man changed music. His students included Marcus Miller, Omar Hakim, Steve Jordan, Zach Danziger, Zachary Alford, Sterling Campbell, Taru Alexander, Kenny Washington, and many others. He changed music. Here’s the crazy story. I auditioned for the High School of Music & Art. I may have been one of the last people to audition that year. My reading was good, but my theory and harmony probably weren’t at the level the school required. I didn’t get accepted. I was rejected. But there can be something beautiful about rejection. I used it as fuel. First, I knew I had to improve my theory and harmony. Second, I decided I would never allow myself to be in that position again. I worked extremely hard. I had a lot of friends at the school, including Eric McPherson, so I would go there to hang out. Justin saw me around. Eventually, I began getting into all of the tri-state honor bands. In essence, I started beating out many of the students who had been accepted into his school. Justin asked me, “Man, why didn’t you come here?” I said, “I auditioned, but you all turned me down.” He said, “What?” The best part is that later, he made sure I received a full scholarship to Manhattan School of Music. Justin became my buddy and my friend. I recently played in New York at my guy Spike’s club. Justin usually doesn’t come out, but he came with his wife, Shelley, and his family. Seeing him there brought me to tears because I began thinking about the journey. His rejecting me helped make me who I am. It made me work harder to prove myself. That’s why I always feel like the underdog. I believe I need to work harder than everybody else all the time—the Kobe mentality. That mentality was instilled in me all the way back then. There’s nothing like somebody telling you that you aren’t good enough. You can respond in two ways. At first, being from Brooklyn, part of me wanted to go back up there and start beating people up! Then I said, “No, no. We can’t do that. Let’s calm down.” I had to think honestly about why I had been rejected. What hadn’t I done correctly? Which areas needed improvement? Then I focused on those areas and elevated my game. I could have gone back to audition the next year, but I decided to remain at Erasmus Hall. A lot of great people came from Erasmus. We had D Train—the original D Train—and I went to school with the great singer Stacy Francis. Many great people came out of that school. Being rejected also pushed me harder academically. Justin kept his word and helped get me into Manhattan School of Music. Years later, he came up to me and said, “You know what? I may never have told you this, but I’m so proud of you.” Then he said, “You’re playing better now than when you were there.” I said, “Really? Damn, man. Wow.” I feel it too, because now I have a greater understanding of what to play and what not to play. Anyone who has met Justin understands that he has his own way. You have to understand what it is. At the end of the day, he just wants the music to swing. The fact that his students included Omar Hakim, Steve Jordan, Kenny Washington, and so many others is incredible. TREVOR: Am I correct that Music & Art was essentially the predecessor to LaGuardia? GREGORY: Yes, that was the school before LaGuardia. Everybody called it the Fame school. That was why I wanted to go there. I wanted to jump around on the tables! Actually, there was another reason I wanted to go there, but we won’t talk about that now. Rejection can be incredible when someone tells you you’re not good enough. The question is: How do you respond? Now I tell my students, “There will be points in your life when you are rejected.” When you get knocked down, you’re supposed to fight back, stand up, and rise above it. As a people, we’ve had to do that, and we still have to prove ourselves. If you and I walk into a high-end store, people may look at us as though we don’t belong there. It isn’t until we pull out our wallets or cards that they begin treating us differently. We’re still being forced to prove ourselves. That mentality makes me work harder. We have to outwork everybody else. JUNETEENTH, RACE, AND THE STATE OF THE COUNTRY TREVOR: That’s true. I want to mark that we’re recording this interview on Juneteenth. I recently learned that the administration could not remove the federal holiday without an act of Congress, but Juneteenth was removed from the list of fee-free days at national parks. Visitors who previously could enter a national park free on Juneteenth will now have to pay admission. That date was replaced with Flag Day, which also falls on the president’s birthday. It feels deliberate—like a thumb in the eye. But at the end of the day, as you said, we have often been required to perform better and go above and beyond. I think we’ll see some of that reflected in the midterm elections. Not to become too political, but I feel that change may be coming. GREGORY: I hope so, man. I’m genuinely hopeful. They already have my vote. I was watching Barack and Michelle Obama yesterday, and it brought me to tears. What happened to decency and respect? What happened to those things? TREVOR: What happened? GREGORY: They already banned me, so it’s all good! I don’t mind speaking. But at the end of the day, we’ll see what happens. THE AI-GENERATED GREGORY HUTCHINSON ALBUM TREVOR: That same kind of polarization has entered the music community through the subject of artificial intelligence. You come from the background of being a consummate jazz musician and a consummate musician overall. Jazz is generally considered a more traditional art form and has not historically involved as much electronic integration as some other genres. How do you view the current conversation surrounding AI and music? GREGORY: The funny thing is that on the same day I released my album, Spotify released another album that said it was mine. TREVOR: What? GREGORY: It wasn’t me. It came out on the exact same day, and it’s still up. I decided to listen to it, and it appeared to be AI-generated. When I heard it, I said, “Oh, wow. This is crazy.” The Terminator wasn’t only a movie. Be ready! Everything that happens in movies eventually happens in real life. Look at Star Trek and all of the technology they imagined. We have to be aware. I was chopping records in this room recently. I want to chop my own records. I don’t want AI-generated chops or AI-generated songs. I want to chop the art myself. The beauty is in doing it. We have to be careful about where we choose to use these tools. AI can also put a lot of people out of work. In the studio world, people may begin asking, “Do we need to call live musicians? We can generate something that sounds close enough, so why should we pay?” We need to be careful what we ask for. If somebody can release a complete album under my name, eventually the only safe place for musicians may be live performance. Then again, fewer people are attending live shows. If we aren’t careful, the recording industry and everything we value within it could disappear. I’m sure AI has places where it can be useful, but we need to be careful about how we use it and what we use it for. I’m old-school, so I can’t say I’m fully for it. I like my own way of doing things. I like generating my own sounds. It’s difficult, though. I know some people are deeply involved with it, and I’m sure it can be useful in certain circumstances. But creatively, it isn’t something I’m naturally drawn to. TREVOR: That’s your opinion, and that’s completely valid. For all intents and purposes, AI probably isn’t going anywhere. It’s becoming integrated and evolving, just as digital technology did. The same thing happened when sampling first emerged. It continues evolving, and we’ll have to see where it goes. I love AI in other applications. I don’t love the environmental impact, but I do love its potential to increase the output of one individual. As one person, I can now scale my output tenfold or even a hundredfold compared with what I could accomplish three, four, or five years ago. In that sense, it’s light-years ahead and extremely helpful when harnessed correctly. It comes down to the use case. GREGORY: I have to admit that I haven’t had an opportunity to sit down and explore it deeply. Like anything else, once you explore it, you may discover practical uses. For example, I was in the hospital a couple of weeks ago because of my blood pressure. When I need to research something quickly, I’ll go to ChatGPT. We’re already using these tools. For me, the question is how to find the best way to use them. I have to explore that more. That probably should have been my first answer: I don’t fully know because I haven’t explored every avenue. But when that fake record came out, I thought, “Damn, really? You couldn’t even wait two days?” I was searching for my album and saw another release listed under Greg Hutchinson. I thought, “What the hell is this?” It was called something like Something in the Dream, and it was an entire album. I listened to the songs. It was wild—and it was doing good numbers! TREVOR: That’s crazy. In the right hands, AI can be a powerful tool. We have to make sure it doesn’t fall into the wrong hands. GREGORY: Exactly. TREVOR: It comes down to responsibility and how we use it. The industry is attempting to adjust, but it can’t keep up with the rate of technology. Technology arrives first. The industry follows and tries to develop regulation afterward. We’re currently in that period, and we’ll see what happens. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts because I ask every guest about this. I want to capture a chronological record of what important contributors were thinking during this early stage. Years from now, we may be able to look back and understand where everybody stood while these developments were still beginning. GREGORY: I’ll say this to anybody watching: Show me. If you follow me on Instagram, give me advice. I’m always willing to learn. How are you using the tool? Show me. If it’s something I can use in my everyday life, I’m completely open. I’m not one of those people who says, “Forget it. I can’t use this.” If it’s going to help me, I’m open to it. TREVOR: Based on historical trends, I feel Miles Davis would have found a way to implement it. He probably would have discovered some application none of us are even considering. GREGORY: Exactly. He was a forward thinker. TREVOR: Chick Corea was the same way. He was technologically forward through every iteration. Herbie Hancock was one of the first people I heard discussing some of these ideas. I remember sitting on a bus with Herbie 15 or 16 years ago. He was reading an article about a new Tesla vehicle before the car was even released. He has always pushed technology and remained ahead. AI is another step in that progression. It’s up to us to use it responsibly or use it nefariously. THE LEGACY GREGORY HOPES TO LEAVE TREVOR: Greg, when people look back on your legacy years from now, what do you hope they say about Gregory Hutchinson, the man behind the drums? Not only the drummer, but the man. GREGORY: I hope they say that I tried not only to play the instrument, but to elevate the people who came into my space through the instrument. My philosophy has always been that if you come to see me play after having a bad day, I want to see you smiling when you leave. I also want people to understand that when they saw me play, it wasn’t about me. It was about we. I play in service of the music. That’s why I don’t need a drum solo. I get to do everything I want to do within the music. I hope people can see my evolution from when I was 20, when certain things may have felt necessary, to my understanding now. It was always about the music, but as you get older, you understand that idea even more deeply. I’m in service of the music. I’m in service of making the people around me sound good. Look, if we all sound good, we all show out. When people come to me and say, “Man, you sound good,” I say, “No, no—you’re missing the point.” Either I didn’t translate something correctly from the stage, or you weren’t listening in the right way. So let me rephrase it. Let me ask you: Did we sound good? That’s the legacy I want to have—that I made other people sound good. I enjoyed myself. I told jokes. I was crazy. I had a good time. I get to sit here and talk with you, man. We haven’t seen each other in a long time, but I’ve been admiring the work you’re doing. I hope the legacy is that I embraced everybody and that people had a good time while I was doing it. If they can say that about me, that’s cool. TREVOR: What they’re going to say will start with, “He was killing!” They’re going to say you were an influence, just as you’ve been an influence on me. I’m so happy we were able to sit down. I know we ran into each other a couple of years ago in Indiana during the famous late-night cigar hang. GREGORY: Oh, yes. That’s right! I can’t even do that anymore, man. TREVOR: It’s all good. Just show up for the fraternal part. Greg, I appreciate you pulling up on us today for The TrevBeats Show. Ladies and gentlemen, one of the greats. His music and information are linked in the description, but all you really have to do is search Gregory Hutchinson and you’ll find everything you need to know. Mr. Gregory Hutchinson on The TrevBeats Show. Love you, brother. I appreciate you. GREGORY: Thank you, man. TREVOR: Wait a second! Hold on. Stop it. Do you have a milestone coming up that you want to share with everybody? GREGORY’S UPCOMING MARRIAGE GREGORY: Oh, yeah. I’m about to get married for the third time! That’s it! But life is about lessons learned. You have to understand what will make you happy, what will elevate you, and what will help you become a better person. I’ve found that, and I’m happy. I’m looking forward to the next 40 or 50 years. Forty—if we make it, I’m good with that! I’m happy, brother. It was great to pull up on you. Thank you for having me. TREVOR: It’s all good, man. Gregory Hutchinson, ladies and gentlemen. GREGORY: Talk to you soon, bro. TREVOR: Thanks, brother. OUTRO TREVOR: If you got value from this episode, do me a favor: Hit subscribe, drop a like, and share this with somebody who needs to hear it. New episodes drop every week. I’m Trevor Lawrence Jr. This is The TrevBeats Show, and we’re out.